That's true. If the motorcyclist was going way over the speed limit then I wouldn't think the cyclist would be responsible for cutting in front of him. But, it's still a situation to watch out for when we're out there.
<br><br>Serge<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 6/6/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Bicyclist</b> <<a href="mailto:bikes.alot@cox.net">bikes.alot@cox.net</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
I suspect that an accurate crash report showing the location of impact in
relation to the width of the roadway... and perhaps the condition of the
shoulder and/or right-most section of the roadway would help figure out
what may have happened. The speed of the motorcyclist might be
interesting too. <div><span class="q" id="q_11304b91fb5abd98_1"><br><br>
At 10:15 PM 6/6/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:<br>
</span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span class="e" id="q_11304b91fb5abd98_3">Jack,<br><br>
Whether speculation is pointless or has value depends on the goal,
doesn't it? If one is trying to determine what actually happened, I
agree, speculation is pointless (and is arguably inappropriate for this
forum). But if we're trying to construct hypothetical but realistic
situations based as much as possible on speculating about what is likely
to have happened in a real incident in order to discuss what might have
been done to avoid that type of crash, then I think it has value,
especially if we construct all the reasonably likely scenarios and
discuss what might have been done, if anything, to avoid crashes in
each. The latter is what I assume we're doing here; it is what I'm
doing, and will proceed accordingly. <br><br>
I reread your post. I don't think I misunderstood. Here is
your main point, if I'm not mistaken.<br><br>
> So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what
appears<br>
> as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
<br>
> the lane to the motorist behind me.<br><br>
I don't disagree. I just don't understand the relevance. The
following applies to any hypothetical lane crossing, not necessarily to
actually what happened in this particular tragedy at all: <br><br>
Regardless of whether the cyclist's lane crossing appears smooth or
veering, if an overtaking driver hits him in the process, the cyclist
violated the right-of-way (ROW) of the overtaking motorist. That
is, the cyclist initiated the crossing of the lane without first
establishing right of way to do so. Some cyclists seem to think all
they have to do to establish right of way to cross a lane in a situation
like this is signal. But that's incorrect. You can't just
signal and cut in front of someone who is about to, or is in the process
of, passing you. You have to wait for a sufficiently long gap, or
use negotiation (signal and wait until someone yields ROW to you, by
slowing down to your speed or changing lanes). <br><br>
Back to what actually happened here, I see all speculation falling under
one of these three general possibilities:<br><br>
1) The cyclist was maintaining a straight line and the motorcyclist
either didn't notice him at all (in time anyway) and hit him from behind,
or the motorcyclist passed too closely clipping him, later claiming the
cyclist "veered" in front of him. <br><br>
2) The cyclist moved into the path of the overtaking motorcyclist
(perhaps because he didn't notice the motorcyclist, or maybe because he
mistakenly thought he had the ROW for some reason).<br><br>
3) The motorcyclist was passing too closely AND the cyclist moved left,
but not much (say a foot or two), though enough to get hit/clipped
because the motorcyclist was passing too closely. <br><br>
Can anyone think of any other possibiliites?<br><br>
If (1), then I can't think of anything the cyclist could have done to
avoid this.<br>
If (2), then the crash was arguably largely the fault of the
cyclist. Lesson: always look back with a head turn (learn to do
this without veering) and make sure you have ROW before moving laterally.
<br>
if (3), again, I'm not sure what the cyclist could have done, assuming
his relatively slight lateral adjustment was necessary and
reasonable.<br><br>
Serge<br><br>
<br><br>
On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <<a href="mailto:jbochsler@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
jbochsler@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Speculation on what happened is pointless - we are only<br>
> going to hear the perspective of the motorist, which may<br>
> contain some self-preserving bias.<br>
> <br>
> Reread my mail, you missed my point. <br>
> The topic was 'veering' and the speed/angle of movement<br>
> relative to different vehicle types, not location of<br>
> movement.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --- Serge Issakov <<a href="mailto:serge@issakov.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
serge@issakov.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did
absolutely<br>
> > nothing<br>
> > wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind. I
suppose <br>
> > it's also<br>
> > possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist
was<br>
> > passing<br>
> > him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back
over his<br>
> > left <br>
> > shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the
path of the<br>
> > motorcyclist.<br>
> ><br>
> > Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the
motorcyclist<br>
> > (perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and
veered in <br>
> > front<br>
> > of him.<br>
> ><br>
> > In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at
the<br>
> > right side<br>
> > of the road is all too familar to me. I see it executed
on many <br>
> > mornings<br>
> > along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with
Eastgate<br>
> ><br>
>
Mall<<a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
</a><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t
</a><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
</a>><br>
> > .<br>
> ><br>
> > Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across
the<br>
> > right<br>
> > traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y"
headed for<br>
> > Eastgate, to<br>
> > get into the left arm to continue on Regents. They
rarely merge<br>
> > left<br>
> > "vehicularly", which requires starting to merge
pretty early, soon<br>
> > after <br>
> > crossing Executive if not sooner.<br>
> ><br>
> > Serge<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler
<<a href="mailto:jbochsler@yahoo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">jbochsler@yahoo.com</a> >
wrote:<br>
> > > I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering
means<br>
> > > to turn sharply. But what would be categorized as a
sharp<br>
> > > turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and
easy <br>
> > > at 12mph. So what would appear to be abrupt actions
from the<br>
> > > perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural
behavior<br>
> > > from a bicycle.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what
appears <br>
> > > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as
veering across<br>
> > > the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be
equally<br>
> > > 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation. <br>
> > ><br>
> > > Although it would be nice if motorists could account for
cyclist<br>
> > > specific behavior, history shows otherwise. And
thinking about<br>
> > > bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a
result of <br>
> > > cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can
react.<br>
> > > So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic
as a<br>
> > > vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > jack<br>
> > ><br>
> > > --- Jim Baross
<<a href="mailto:JimBaross@cox.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">JimBaross@cox.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to
the defense <br>
> > of<br>
> > > > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty
of in this<br>
> > case<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > where we don't know what really happened.... We do
know that <br>
> > people<br>
> > > > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a
two-wheeled<br>
> > device<br>
> > > > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side
to keep <br>
> > upright.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > People overtaking such a device should account for
that veering<br>
> > to<br>
> > > > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing
until it is <br>
> > > > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance.
It is not<br>
> > > > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway
position when<br>
> > > > overtaking someone traveling slower. <br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass
safely....<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:<br>
> > > > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist
veered" statements <br>
> > > > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the
motorist had<br>
> > > > >wanted/hoped/desired.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > >jack<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > >--- Tom Jenney
<<a href="mailto:Thomas.Jenney@Sun.COM" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Thomas.Jenney@Sun.COM</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this
afternoon. The <br>
> > > > reporter<br>
> > > > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in
front of the<br>
> > > > motorcyclist, who<br>
> > > > > > was unable to stop in time. Maybe
that is what really <br>
> > happened<br>
> > > > > in this case, but<br>
> > > > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is
the standard<br>
> > > > explanation<br>
> > > > > > reported by the media. It perpetuates
the notion that <br>
> > bicyclists<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > > as a whole<br>
> > > > > > don't know what they are doing on the
road and probably<br>
> > should<br>
> > > > > not be there since <br>
> > > > > > they end up getting killed due to their
erratic riding<br>
> > behavior.<br>
> > > > > ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
>
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