From trevorspoke at cox.net  Fri Jun  1 02:46:09 2007
From: trevorspoke at cox.net (Trevor Bourget)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:46:09 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Share the Road is actually a requirement, not a request
Message-ID: <20070601064610.IYCP13995.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net>

Here is my response to the editorial.
-- Trevor

>Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 23:44:25 -0700
>To: GLDillow at aol.com
>From: Trevor Bourget <trevorspoke at cox.net>
>Subject: Share the Road is actually a requirement, not a request
>
>>Now, I'm sure I'll be hearing from bicyclists 
>>who will explain to me ? in a civil manner, I 
>>hope ? just how wrong I am on this one. If so, 
>>I'll try to fairly present their point of view in a future column.
>
>Thanks for getting one thing right in your 
>column. The "Share the Road" campaign is a nice 
>way of reminding motorists that there is a legal 
>obligation between highway users, including a 
>legal requirement to yield to an overtaken 
>cyclist, passing at a safe combination of 
>speed/distance when the opportunity presents itself.
>
>It has been studied, demonstrated, proven that 
>the major risk factor between any two highway 
>users is related to crossing conflict. Unless we 
>build grade-separated crossings at every 
>intersection, the safest way for slow and fast 
>traffic to mix is to put them in lanes 
>channelized by direction of destination (left 
>turn, straight, right turn) and teach them how to merge legally and safely.
>
>Bike paths, barricaded bike lanes, and other 
>such physical segregation prevents bicyclists 
>and motorists from preparing early to merge into 
>proper destination channels, so they provide 
>false security between intersections that 
>concentrate and magnify the danger of the 
>intersections. Also, road surface maintenance 
>(trenching, pothole, sweeping) of any 
>non-motoring facility is nearly always worse, 
>while bicycle tires demand better surfaces than do motor vehicle tires.
>
>By the way, many cyclists who don't know the 
>real risks in traffic are afraid of all the 
>things you mention, and without education this 
>can lead to many of the very incidents you point 
>out. For example, cyclists who try to stay too 
>far to the right may suddenly swerve out into 
>traffic when they come upon an obstacle. Far 
>safer behavior is to always ride closer to the 
>well-traveled part of the roadway where such 
>obstacles are less likely, and where overtaking 
>motorists can notice the cyclist and provide 
>appropriate increased lateral distance or slow 
>down while overtaking in order to make an 
>evasive maneuver of their own if required.
>
>Thanks for the offer to post a follow-up 
>editorial which will remind all your readers to 
>share the road with each other: motor, cycle, and ped.
>
>-- Trevor Bourget
>Poway, California
>LCI (League of American Bicyclist Cycling Instructor) #998


From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Fri Jun  1 09:48:44 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:48:44 EDT
Subject: [SDCBC] Curb bicyclists? NO! RE: OC Register Fwd: Mr. Dillow
	comment lett...
Message-ID: <d17.efce72b.33917dbc@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/31/07 5:31:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
JimBaross at cox.net writes:

> Jim Krause is certainly entitled to his opinion, but based on my training 
> and experience, his recommendation for a curb to divide the roadway between 
> bicycling and motoring doesn't work for bicycling. 

I have not looked at the OC register but I would like to share some 
thoughts...

It might be useful to turn this around so that rather than being defensive 
about the needs of cyclists, we thank Mr. Krause (or whoever it is) for his 
concern for cyclists and his awareness of the possible dangers to cyclists if 
motorists are inattentive or irresponsible.

Further, it would seem that Mr. Krause is concerned with the possibility that 
he may collide with a cyclist and the result could be that someone was 
injured.  This is honorable but I suggest that rather than trying to separate 
cyclists from motorists, we recommend that  Mr. Krause consider making an effort to 
be as attentive as possible and to make an extra effort to be aware of the 
presence of cyclists on the road.  This is what is needed to further increase the 
safety level of cycling.   He could further his understanding and skill as a 
vehicle operator by taking further education, either if the form of a driver 
education course or better yet, a Ride for Life class where he learned about 
cycling and the inharent problems associated with separating vehicle types.

We should tell him that cycling has proven to be a safe form of 
transportation and that we are comfortable and confident riding along with other vehicles 
whose operators are paying attention.

Jon Isaacs






**************************************
 See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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From lists01 at briandesousa.com  Fri Jun  1 10:13:43 2007
From: lists01 at briandesousa.com (Brian DeSousa)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:13:43 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] [CABO] OC Register Fwd: Mr. Dillow comment letter to all
In-Reply-To: <1229365006-1463747838-1180665042@boing.topica.com>
References: <1229365006-1463747838-1180665042@boing.topica.com>
Message-ID: <20070601141355.941622488@uniblab.stickman-computing.org>

See my letter 
here:  http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/abox/article_1714852.php




Brian DeSousa
Orange, California

Co-founder, Dual Chase Productions <www.dualchase.com>
Vice President, California Association of Bicycling Organizations 
<www.cabobike.org>
League Cycling Instructor #838, League of American Bicyclists 
<www.bikeleague.org>


From bikes.alot at cox.net  Fri Jun  1 12:06:52 2007
From: bikes.alot at cox.net (Bicyclist)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:06:52 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Curb bicyclists? NO! RE: OC Register Fwd: Mr. Dillow
 comment lett...
In-Reply-To: <d17.efce72b.33917dbc@aol.com>
References: <d17.efce72b.33917dbc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070601085742.039b5e68@cox.net>

Jon:
The OC Register article was not written by Jim Krause. He, a 
self-described weekend cyclist, responded to the OC article by 
suggesting curbed-off roadway portions for bicyclists as an 
appropriate safety measure for roads with speed limits over 30 mph. 
Though the OC article by Gordon Dillow did recommend bike paths and 
alternative routes for bicycling. See 
<http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/columns/article_1711917.php>http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/columns/article_1711917.php 


At 06:48 AM 6/1/2007, JonIsaacs at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 5/31/07 5:31:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>JimBaross at cox.net writes:
>
>>Jim Krause is certainly entitled to his opinion, but based on my 
>>training and experience, his recommendation for a curb to divide 
>>the roadway between bicycling and motoring doesn't work for bicycling.
>
>(Jon commented)
>I have not looked at the OC register but I would like to share some 
>thoughts...
>
>It might be useful to turn this around so that rather than being 
>defensive about the needs of cyclists, we thank Mr. Krause (or 
>whoever it is) for his concern for cyclists and his awareness of the 
>possible dangers to cyclists if motorists are inattentive or irresponsible.

- snip -  
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From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Fri Jun  1 12:51:45 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:51:45 EDT
Subject: [SDCBC] On the lighter side...
Message-ID: <cea.10a2434d.3391a8a1@aol.com>

This "forum" is always so serious, I thought I might share a bit of fun I 
have been having recently.

There are those days when I get up and I am ready to charge off, attack the 
hills, drag race cars at stop lights and generally just have a fun time on a 
bicycle.

Then there are those days when I know I better take it easy, I need to 
recover, need to take it easy and just waddle up the hills on my way to work...  It 
can be kind of boring and usually I forget myself and go harder than I want 
to.

But recently I have discovered a new pleasure, a new way to keep alert, a way 
to pace myself...

I count the number of cigarette butts along the of the road...  

For example, the other day between 52 and Governer north bound on Genesee, 
there were 114 butts.  Last week south bound on Genesee from 52 up to 
Appleton-Lehrer, there were over a 120 butts but yesterday, there were only about 80.

So I am wondering, is my counting technique so bad that I can miss 40 butts?  
Or did the city sweep the street and there are already another 80 butts out 
there?

Further research is required...

Note:  One must always make spotting the cigarette butts the second priority, 
the first being attention to the road and traffic.  

On the lighter side, or is it Litter side....

Jon


**************************************
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http://www.aol.com.
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From amyindelmar at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 15:10:52 2007
From: amyindelmar at gmail.com (Amy)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 12:10:52 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bike lane on Washington Ave
Message-ID: <3d7cff560706011210o7fadff79yca83b80ccf864cd6@mail.gmail.com>

I'm new to the SD downtown area and was biking home from UCSD a few days ago
when I mistakenly took Washington Avenue from the 5 freeway up towards
Hillcrest. Technically, there's a bike lane going all the way up to
University, but it's in worse shape than some off-road trails I've been on!

Does anyone know if the City plans to clean up the bike lane on Washington
Ave (heading East into Hillcrest from 5 freeway)? The other side of the
street (going down) is fine, and I ride that fairly regularly.

Thanks,
Amy (every day biker)
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From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  2 22:46:44 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 19:46:44 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Should I ask for more than one map?
Message-ID: <46622B94.8080501@earthlink.net>

Hello!
	I don't want to appear greedy, but should I ask for more than one map 
the next time I order a bike map? I gave away one map two weeks ago, and 
on Friday I gave away the map I'd gotten in the mail on Thursday....

Robert Leone


From trevorspoke at cox.net  Sun Jun  3 20:58:24 2007
From: trevorspoke at cox.net (trevorspoke at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 17:58:24 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] On the lighter side...
Message-ID: <25150313.1180918704831.JavaMail.root@fed1wml04.mgt.cox.net>

---- JonIsaacs at aol.com wrote: 
> This "forum" is always so serious, I thought I might share a bit of fun I 
> have been having recently.
> 
> Last week south bound on Genesee from 52 up to 
> Appleton-Lehrer, there were over a 120 butts but yesterday, there were only about 80.
> Further research is required.

Perhaps some misguided advocacy group has been going around super-gluing them to bicycles for decoration, not knowing the true meaning of More Butts on Bikes.

-- Trevor

From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Sun Jun  3 21:29:57 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:29:57 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Don't schedule downtown rides July 26-29th.
Message-ID: <46636B15.2040101@earthlink.net>

Dear SDCBCers:
	Please be advised this year's dates for Comic-Con International shall 
be Thursday through Sunday on the 26th to 29th of July. They managed to 
get the entire convention center at capacity on Saturday last year. 
Downtown and harborside travel will be a nightmare (I think someone did 
a Comic-Con special issue about that a few years back). Let your group 
ride planning and commuter friends know!

Robert Leone


From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Sun Jun  3 21:48:17 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:48:17 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] On the lighter side...
In-Reply-To: <25150313.1180918704831.JavaMail.root@fed1wml04.mgt.cox.net>
References: <25150313.1180918704831.JavaMail.root@fed1wml04.mgt.cox.net>
Message-ID: <46636F61.8030907@earthlink.net>

OK, butted, double butted, even triple butted I can understand, but 120 
butted bike tubing is just way too incremental for me to wrap my brain 
around. "Only Lugs Toss Butts?" Nah, my TIGed frame has butted tubing.

There's a REALLY bad joke in there waiting to get out.

Robert Leone

trevorspoke at cox.net wrote:
> ---- JonIsaacs at aol.com wrote: 
> 
>>This "forum" is always so serious, I thought I might share a bit of fun I 
>>have been having recently.
>>
>>Last week south bound on Genesee from 52 up to 
>>Appleton-Lehrer, there were over a 120 butts but yesterday, there were only about 80.
>>Further research is required.
> 
> 
> Perhaps some misguided advocacy group has been going around super-gluing them to bicycles for decoration, not knowing the true meaning of More Butts on Bikes.
> 
> -- Trevor



From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Sun Jun  3 22:09:55 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 22:09:55 EDT
Subject: [SDCBC] On the lighter side...
Message-ID: <d26.a7fe574.3394ce73@aol.com>

>>>Perhaps some misguided advocacy group has been going around super-gluing 
them to bicycles for decoration, not knowing the true meaning of More Butts on 
Bikes.

-- Trevor
----
 
ROTFLOL...

A nice way to end the week end....

Jon


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.
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From execdir at sdcbc.org  Mon Jun  4 16:20:27 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 13:20:27 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Carmel Valley/SR56 bike path flooding removed
Message-ID: <000701c7a6e5$ca786d40$5f6947c0$@org>

Word on the street (path) is that City crews are out today pumping out water
from the flooded section of the SR56 bike path in Carmel Valley. I'm hopeful
this means we will be able to ride the whole thing, at least for the summer,
rather than taking the detour. If anyone is out there, please let me know
the status of the path!

Kathy

 

-----------------------------------------------

Kathy Keehan

Executive Director

San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

P.O. Box 34544

San Diego, CA 92163

858.487.6063

execdir at sdcbc.org

 

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From JimBaross at cox.net  Mon Jun  4 19:05:50 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 16:05:50 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] DMV reporting harassment/illegal operation
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070604150305.0383e008@cox.net>

TO: Unsafe Driver Section of the California Department of Motor Vehicles
FROM: Jim Baross (address & phone)

I understand that you will accept reports of unsafe and/or illegal 
traffic acts. I am providing such a report by fax to 858-627-3925.

I am requesting that the owner/operator of the vehicle in the 
incident reported below be informed by the Department of Motor 
Vehicles of the traffic laws related to safe operation of a motor 
vehicle when about to or when overtaking a person on a bicycle, and 
that the legal and safe operation of a bicycle allows a bicyclist to 
travel in normal travel lanes away from parked vehicles and other 
hazards (CVC 21202).

 From the 2007 California Driver Handbook, page 25, "When passing a 
bicyclist, pass on the left. If you are in a narrow traffic lane, 
wait until the traffic clears in the opposite lane before passing a 
bicyclist. DO NOT squeeze past the bicyclist."

INCIDENT REPORT
Date: June 3, 2007         Time: approximately 11:20 a.m.
Weather: Clear, unobstructed visibility, no appreciable wind
Location
     City: San Diego
     Street: Point Loma Boulevard, east-bound/south-side near Famosa Boulevard
     Roadway description: two lanes in each direction, no Bike Lane, 
lots of on-street/shoulder vehicle parking
Perpetrator's Vehicle
     Calif License: 7U4 7801
     Vehicle description: GMC Sierra pickup, Black, large tires, 
tinted rear window has text/message "ACE TATTOO" (photo available upon request.

Perpetrator Description:
     Driver: White male, black hair and beard, approximate age 28
     Passenger: White or Hispanic female, approximate age 20+
     Business - apparently
          Address: Ace Tattoo, 5058 1/2 Newport Ave, San Diego, CA 92107
          Phone: 619-222-5097, 619-962-2381

Incident description:
I was riding a bicycle eastbound on Pt Loma Blvd., a road with two 
lanes in each direction. I was in the outside/right-most lane 
approximately three to four feet away from vehicles parked at the 
side of the road.
Perpetrator's vehicle passed extremely closely to me; within 12 
inches. I was frightened, tensed my control of the bike, and shouted 
"hey!" Driver continued w/o stopping.

At the next signalized intersection at Midway, I complained to the 
driver that he should not pass unsafely. He shouted that I was an 
idiot, that I was inappropriately riding "this far from the parked 
cars" indicating approximately three feet... that he didn't have to 
move over for me because I was an idiot. He said that his passenger 
would testify/witness that I had swerved into his path.

I am a more than competent bicyclist, a bicycling instructor since 
1986 for the League of American Bicyclists and locally for the San 
Diego County Bicycle Coalition. I do not serve unnecessarily and did 
not swerve prior to or during this incident. I was riding legally and 
prudently with a safe margin from the parked vehicles to my right. 
There was sparse traffic and ample opportunity for this driver to 
have merged to his left or further into the center/left most 
straight-through east-bound lane.

Based on his statements, he apparently performed what I call a 
"brush-back", attempting to "show me where I didn't belong" by 
passing extremely closely - an attempt to terrorize me by dangerous 
harassment with a motor vehicle.

The driver apparently does not understand the responsibility for a 
motor vehicle operator when overtaking a bicyclist; to wait behind

Jim Baross
San Diego, California

Chair, SANDAG Bicycle Pedestrian Working Group
Vice Chair, Calif. Bicycle Advisory Committee
President, Calif. Association of Bicycle Organizations
Board Member, Calif. Bicycle Coalition
Chair, Strategic Highway Safety Plan, Bicycling Safety
Spokesperson, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
League LCI Trainer & Effective Cycling Instructor #185 K-C  



From serge at issakov.org  Mon Jun  4 19:36:45 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 16:36:45 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] DMV reporting harassment/illegal operation
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070604150305.0383e008@cox.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070604150305.0383e008@cox.net>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0706041636s795426c3m50fd7fc7ce31e183@mail.gmail.com>

What an ahole... on behalf of all cyclists out there, thanks for
reporting him.  I hope it will help.

I haven't ridden there, but it sounds like part of my commute along La
Jolla Village Drive (though that is 3 lanes each way and speed limit
is 45) between Lebon and Regents Road where onstreet parking is
allowed.  It's the classic "marginal width lane" that Brian talks
about, where it looks wide enough to share, but by the time you take
into account proper positioning outside of the door zone, it really
isn't.  In addition, if you ride just outside the DZ, you leave just
enough room on your left to make it look like you are purposefully
leaving enough room for them to squeeze in next to you, and, that,
coupled with the fact that the uninitiated think you could/should be
further to the right, they feel justified in squeezing you a bit (if
you're scared, they probably think, that's good, as long as you're not
hit, because that might teach you a lesson and save your life in the
future).   So often they feel justified in passing you that closely.

So, I ride further left to make it clear in no uncertain terms that
they have to change lanes to pass me.  I get honked at doing that, but
only a couple of times per year.  YMMV.

Serge


On 6/4/07, Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
> TO: Unsafe Driver Section of the California Department of Motor Vehicles
> FROM: Jim Baross (address & phone)
>
> I understand that you will accept reports of unsafe and/or illegal
> traffic acts. I am providing such a report by fax to 858-627-3925.
>
> I am requesting that the owner/operator of the vehicle in the
> incident reported below be informed by the Department of Motor
> Vehicles of the traffic laws related to safe operation of a motor
> vehicle when about to or when overtaking a person on a bicycle, and
> that the legal and safe operation of a bicycle allows a bicyclist to
> travel in normal travel lanes away from parked vehicles and other
> hazards (CVC 21202).
>
>  From the 2007 California Driver Handbook, page 25, "When passing a
> bicyclist, pass on the left. If you are in a narrow traffic lane,
> wait until the traffic clears in the opposite lane before passing a
> bicyclist. DO NOT squeeze past the bicyclist."
>
> INCIDENT REPORT
> Date: June 3, 2007         Time: approximately 11:20 a.m.
> Weather: Clear, unobstructed visibility, no appreciable wind
> Location
>      City: San Diego
>      Street: Point Loma Boulevard, east-bound/south-side near Famosa Boulevard
>      Roadway description: two lanes in each direction, no Bike Lane,
> lots of on-street/shoulder vehicle parking
> Perpetrator's Vehicle
>      Calif License: 7U4 7801
>      Vehicle description: GMC Sierra pickup, Black, large tires,
> tinted rear window has text/message "ACE TATTOO" (photo available upon request.
>
> Perpetrator Description:
>      Driver: White male, black hair and beard, approximate age 28
>      Passenger: White or Hispanic female, approximate age 20+
>      Business - apparently
>           Address: Ace Tattoo, 5058 1/2 Newport Ave, San Diego, CA 92107
>           Phone: 619-222-5097, 619-962-2381
>
> Incident description:
> I was riding a bicycle eastbound on Pt Loma Blvd., a road with two
> lanes in each direction. I was in the outside/right-most lane
> approximately three to four feet away from vehicles parked at the
> side of the road.
> Perpetrator's vehicle passed extremely closely to me; within 12
> inches. I was frightened, tensed my control of the bike, and shouted
> "hey!" Driver continued w/o stopping.
>
> At the next signalized intersection at Midway, I complained to the
> driver that he should not pass unsafely. He shouted that I was an
> idiot, that I was inappropriately riding "this far from the parked
> cars" indicating approximately three feet... that he didn't have to
> move over for me because I was an idiot. He said that his passenger
> would testify/witness that I had swerved into his path.
>
> I am a more than competent bicyclist, a bicycling instructor since
> 1986 for the League of American Bicyclists and locally for the San
> Diego County Bicycle Coalition. I do not serve unnecessarily and did
> not swerve prior to or during this incident. I was riding legally and
> prudently with a safe margin from the parked vehicles to my right.
> There was sparse traffic and ample opportunity for this driver to
> have merged to his left or further into the center/left most
> straight-through east-bound lane.
>
> Based on his statements, he apparently performed what I call a
> "brush-back", attempting to "show me where I didn't belong" by
> passing extremely closely - an attempt to terrorize me by dangerous
> harassment with a motor vehicle.
>
> The driver apparently does not understand the responsibility for a
> motor vehicle operator when overtaking a bicyclist; to wait behind
>
> Jim Baross
> San Diego, California
>
> Chair, SANDAG Bicycle Pedestrian Working Group
> Vice Chair, Calif. Bicycle Advisory Committee
> President, Calif. Association of Bicycle Organizations
> Board Member, Calif. Bicycle Coalition
> Chair, Strategic Highway Safety Plan, Bicycling Safety
> Spokesperson, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
> League LCI Trainer & Effective Cycling Instructor #185 K-C
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as serge at issakov.org
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
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> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>

From cyclemedia at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 20:25:39 2007
From: cyclemedia at yahoo.com (Lauren Cooper (DancesWithCars))
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 17:25:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Dillow's O.C. Register editorial
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1180657610.3890.sdcbc@bikesandiego.org>
Message-ID: <812064.35591.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Another letter sent:

Dear Mr. Dillow,

Thank you for your recent article ?Cars And Bicycles Shouldn't Compete?, in
which you state you don't like to share a high-speed road with bicycle
riders because you feel it's too dangerous for them.  I?m sure a great many
motorists feel much the same.  

However, please understand that everyone is subject to relatively similar
risks.  While it may seem dangerous for cyclists to share the road with
cars 100 times heavier, similar risks are taken daily by car drivers
sharing highways with 80,000-pound tractor-trailers, hurtling along at
speeds of 70-80 mph.  A collision at these speeds will be just as dangerous
to the average car driver; just look what happens during a highway fog
pileup.

As for statistics, please remember to take them with a heavy grain of salt.
 In over half of car/bike collisions, the cyclist is treated and walks
away: less than one in 40 is fatal.  And comparing overall risk by
"fatalities per miles traveled" is as flawed as apples and oranges. 
Cycling is far safer than motorcycling, ocean swimming, horse-riding and
climbing ladders.

What is very true is that over half of car/bike collisions are caused by
the cyclist. That?s because in this country we do not teach people how to
safely cycle in traffic at an adult level.  The basic cycling instruction
we get in third grade is sufficient for third graders; not for faster
adults, and not for real traffic.

That?s why Advanced Traffic-Bicycling (sm) classes are offered by most
local bike orgs.  Similar to classes for motorcyclists and bike police,
cyclists can become 80% safer by learning to compensate for common motorist
mistakes: making them safer wherever they ride, on every road, bikelane or
not. Trained cyclists are just as safe as trained drivers ? but it's the
training that makes the difference. 

Please understand that the problem is not that ?when monsters mix with
munchkins the munchkins get stepped on?. It?s not inevitable. It?s that the
munchkins need to be taught how to ride better.  Obviously, a lot of
motorists do too; but at least drivers get some amount of adult-level
instruction.  Most cyclists get none.  

That's why Advanced Traffic-Bicycling is taught to bike-police nationwide
(ipmba.org); and in adult-level, in-depth traffic-bicycling classes from
the League of American Bicyclists (BikeLeague.org)

For further discussion, please see Cooperative Cycling at CycleMedia.org
Thank you for your thought and consideration.

Ms. Lauren Cooper
Co-founder, National Equal Rights for Cyclists Campaign



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ 

From cyclemedia at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  5 16:44:46 2007
From: cyclemedia at yahoo.com (Lauren Cooper (DancesWithCars))
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 13:44:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Cars&Bikes (brief)
Message-ID: <887627.46640.qm@web30209.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


    Dear Mr. Dillow,

A brief addition to my letter from yesterday (6-4-07):

"Drivers need only remember one thing: to always pass cyclists safely, no
matter where they are, right or wrong, no matter what.  That's the law."

You might also find the attached police/cyclist pamphlet of interest.

Thanks again for your thought and consideration.
Lauren Cooper




 
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From execdir at sdcbc.org  Tue Jun  5 18:37:35 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 15:37:35 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bike lanes on Mission Ave
Message-ID: <002501c7a7c2$1cc6e7c0$5654b740$@org>

I got a call about the potential for taking out a traffic lane on Mission
Ave (from Park to Texas) and putting in a bike lane instead. I'm not too
familiar with the area, but I understand that Mission Ave is a one-way
diagonal cut-through street that currently has two lanes for most of it, but
one lane in some sections. The idea would be to remove one of the traffic
lanes and stripe a bike lane (and probably a buffer on the right side of the
bike lane) to take up the space. 

I'm going to go take a look at it on Thursday, but some ideas/concerns I
have include -

1.       We don't want to put in a bike lane simply for traffic calming.
Does the street have enough traffic, at high enough speeds, where a bike
lane is really warranted? There are a lot of bike lanes going in simply for
traffic calming, without regard for bicyclists. 

2.       Is there the potential of providing a contraflow bike lane on the
street, making it two way for bikes while keeping it one way for auto
traffic?

Any of you familiar with the area and have some ideas for what would be good
for bicyclists?

Kathy

 

 

Kathy Keehan

Executive Director

San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

P.O. Box 34544

San Diego, CA 92163

858.487.6063

execdir at sdcbc.org

www.sdcbc.org

 

 

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From pje at efgh.com  Tue Jun  5 19:17:48 2007
From: pje at efgh.com (Philip Erdelsky)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:17:48 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
Message-ID: <4665EF1C.5040309@efgh.com>

Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle

POSTED: 8:48 am PDT June 5, 2007
UPDATED: 10:59 am PDT June 5, 2007

SPRING VALLEY, Calif. -- A bicyclist died Tuesday morning after colliding with 
a motorcycle, NBC 7/39 reported.

The crash happened shortly after 5:30 a.m. at the intersection of Bancroft and 
Kenwood drives in Spring Valley, according to the California Highway Patrol. 
The motorcyclist was not injured in the crash, officers said.

The name of the victim was not released, but a CHP officer said he was 
approximately 67-years-old. The cause of the accident was under investigation, 
the CHP said.

From Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM  Tue Jun  5 19:51:39 2007
From: Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM (Tom Jenney)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:51:39 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <4665EF1C.5040309@efgh.com>
References: <4665EF1C.5040309@efgh.com>
Message-ID: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>

They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter said
the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who was 
unable to
stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened in this case, but
it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation 
reported by
the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists as a whole don't 
know what
they are doing on the road and probably should not be there since they 
end up
getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior. 

Philip Erdelsky wrote:

>Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
>
>POSTED: 8:48 am PDT June 5, 2007
>UPDATED: 10:59 am PDT June 5, 2007
>
>SPRING VALLEY, Calif. -- A bicyclist died Tuesday morning after colliding with 
>a motorcycle, NBC 7/39 reported.
>
>The crash happened shortly after 5:30 a.m. at the intersection of Bancroft and 
>Kenwood drives in Spring Valley, according to the California Highway Patrol. 
>The motorcyclist was not injured in the crash, officers said.
>
>The name of the victim was not released, but a CHP officer said he was 
>approximately 67-years-old. The cause of the accident was under investigation, 
>the CHP said.
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as Thomas.Jenney at sun.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>  
>

From kathrynlaw at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 19:55:54 2007
From: kathrynlaw at gmail.com (Kathryn Law)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:55:54 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
References: <4665EF1C.5040309@efgh.com> <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <7631fb60706051655o26c093f8i583977e8f62ee9c@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070605-1227-bn05fatal2.html


On 6/5/07, Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at sun.com> wrote:
>
> They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter said
> the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who was
> unable to
> stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened in this case, but
> it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation
> reported by
> the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists as a whole don't
> know what
> they are doing on the road and probably should not be there since they
> end up
> getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.
>
>
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From bmatella at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun  5 19:57:05 2007
From: bmatella at sbcglobal.net (Bill Matella)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 16:57:05 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
References: <4665EF1C.5040309@efgh.com> <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <004201c7a7cd$396c1f70$81ecfea9@yourm5d4u9r2uv>

Kinda like that steamroller that veered out in front of me.....

I'm also tired of this lame explanation.

Bill Matella

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Jenney" <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM>
To: "SDCBC Mailing List" <sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle


> They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter said
> the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who was
> unable to
> stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened in this case, but
> it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation
> reported by
> the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists as a whole don't
> know what
> they are doing on the road and probably should not be there since they
> end up
> getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.
>
> Philip Erdelsky wrote:
>
>>Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
>>
>>POSTED: 8:48 am PDT June 5, 2007
>>UPDATED: 10:59 am PDT June 5, 2007
>>
>>SPRING VALLEY, Calif. -- A bicyclist died Tuesday morning after colliding 
>>with
>>a motorcycle, NBC 7/39 reported.
>>
>>The crash happened shortly after 5:30 a.m. at the intersection of Bancroft 
>>and
>>Kenwood drives in Spring Valley, according to the California Highway 
>>Patrol.
>>The motorcyclist was not injured in the crash, officers said.
>>
>>The name of the victim was not released, but a CHP officer said he was
>>approximately 67-years-old. The cause of the accident was under 
>>investigation,
>>the CHP said.
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as Thomas.Jenney at sun.com
>>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>>List privacy information is located at 
>>http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to 
>>postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as bmatella at sbcglobal.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at 
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to 
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org 


From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Tue Jun  5 20:28:54 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 20:28:54 EDT
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
Message-ID: <cab.1350b842.339759c6@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/5/2007 5:00:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
bmatella at sbcglobal.net writes:

> Kinda like that steamroller that veered out in front of me.....
> 
> I'm also tired of this lame explanation.
> 
> Bill Matella
> 

Hi:

There are lots possibilities.   I see plenty of cyclists doing stupid things, 
riding on the wrong side of the road, running stop signs, stop lights, 
changing lanes without looking.

And a I see lot of motorists, motorcyclists speeding, not paying attention, 
not respecting bicyclists...

The police should be able to establish the speed of the motorcycle and other 
relevent facts.   

I don't know what happened here except that someone was killed and that is 
quite sad.  

Jon


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.
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From smcneil2 at san.rr.com  Tue Jun  5 21:32:27 2007
From: smcneil2 at san.rr.com (Steve McNeil)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 18:32:27 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <JFENIPGPMKCCFJAOJBALEECACIAA.smcneil2@san.rr.com>

I think the reporter should be reminded that the bicyclist never had a
chance to tell his side of the story.

--Steve McNeil

-----Original Message-----
From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org
[mailto:sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org]On Behalf Of Tom Jenney
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:52 PM
To: SDCBC Mailing List
Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle


They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter said
the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who was
unable to
stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened in this case, but
it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation
reported by
the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists as a whole don't
know what
they are doing on the road and probably should not be there since they
end up
getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.

Philip Erdelsky wrote:

>Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
>
>POSTED: 8:48 am PDT June 5, 2007
>UPDATED: 10:59 am PDT June 5, 2007
>
>SPRING VALLEY, Calif. -- A bicyclist died Tuesday morning after colliding
with
>a motorcycle, NBC 7/39 reported.
>
>The crash happened shortly after 5:30 a.m. at the intersection of Bancroft
and
>Kenwood drives in Spring Valley, according to the California Highway
Patrol.
>The motorcyclist was not injured in the crash, officers said.
>
>The name of the victim was not released, but a CHP officer said he was
>approximately 67-years-old. The cause of the accident was under
investigation,
>the CHP said.
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as Thomas.Jenney at sun.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at
http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
>
_______________________________________________

You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as smcneil2 at san.rr.com
To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
postmaster at stickman-computing.org


From Omar at mvps.org  Wed Jun  6 10:22:54 2007
From: Omar at mvps.org (Omar Firestone)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 07:22:54 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] "Black Box" Bicycle Helmet & "Predatory Motorist"
Message-ID: <4666C33E.8040809@mvps.org>

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From jbochsler at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  6 12:44:27 2007
From: jbochsler at yahoo.com (Jack Bochsler)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <99934.33582.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements 
is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
wanted/hoped/desired.

jack

--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:

> They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter
> said
> the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who
> was 
> unable to
> stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened in this case, but
> it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation 
> reported by
> the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists as a whole
> don't 
> know what
> they are doing on the road and probably should not be there since
> they 
> end up
> getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior. 
> 
> Philip Erdelsky wrote:
> 
> >Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
> >
> >POSTED: 8:48 am PDT June 5, 2007
> >UPDATED: 10:59 am PDT June 5, 2007
> >
> >SPRING VALLEY, Calif. -- A bicyclist died Tuesday morning after
> colliding with 
> >a motorcycle, NBC 7/39 reported.
> >
> >The crash happened shortly after 5:30 a.m. at the intersection of
> Bancroft and 
> >Kenwood drives in Spring Valley, according to the California Highway
> Patrol. 
> >The motorcyclist was not injured in the crash, officers said.
> >
> >The name of the victim was not released, but a CHP officer said he
> was 
> >approximately 67-years-old. The cause of the accident was under
> investigation, 
> >the CHP said.
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as
> Thomas.Jenney at sun.com
> >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> >List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> 
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as jbochsler at yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 



From execdir at sdcbc.org  Wed Jun  6 13:08:49 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:08:49 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] New contact info for City of San Diego
Message-ID: <002e01c7a85d$59d0f5c0$0d72e140$@org>

For the City of San Diego, bike related requests should go through 533-3126
(main line for traffic engineering). Joel is still working on bike projects,
but they're going to have some other folks also helping. 

For the regular maintenance calls, please continue to call the 527-7500. 

These are both 619 area code. 

Kathy

 

------------------------------------------

Kathy Keehan

Executive Director

San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

P.O. Box 34544

San Diego, CA 92163

858.487.6063

execdir at sdcbc.org

www.sdcbc.org

 

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From JimBaross at cox.net  Wed Jun  6 13:04:35 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:04:35 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <99934.33582.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
	<99934.33582.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606095408.034d3010@cox.net>

At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense of 
the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this case 
where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that people 
on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.

That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled device 
to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep upright. 
People overtaking such a device should account for that veering to 
some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is 
safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not 
generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when 
overtaking someone traveling slower.

But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....

At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
>My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
>is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
>wanted/hoped/desired.
>
>jack
>
>--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
>
> > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The reporter
> > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the motorcyclist, who
> > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened 
> in this case, but
> > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard explanation
> > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists 
> as a whole
> > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably should 
> not be there since
> > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.
> >




From sachiwilson at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  6 13:23:13 2007
From: sachiwilson at sbcglobal.net (Sachi Wilson)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:23:13 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606095408.034d3010@cox.net>
References: <4665F70B.5080201@Sun.COM>
	<99934.33582.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070606095408.034d3010@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4E5E70E5-3BF0-4FC0-AA43-64956D341A77@sbcglobal.net>


On 6 Jun 2007, at 10:04 am, Jim Baross wrote:

> But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....

Certainly.  Not everyone who drives or rides a motorcycle is  
clueless.  I ride all kinds of two wheeled vehicles, and I certainly  
give my pedaling friends a wide berth when I'm motorized!

It could be that the cyclist had a moment's inattention, and caught a  
tire in a flaw in the pavement.  I've done that myself over my  
years), and kicked out into the traffic lane a few times (luckily  
with no harm to me.)  We just don't know anything except that it is a  
sad story and that, as always, education on how to share the road is  
as necessary as it ever was.

Sachi Wilson
*Safety Queen*




From execdir at sdcbc.org  Wed Jun  6 13:26:03 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:26:03 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] New contact info for City of San Diego
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606101658.03729220@cox.net>
References: <002e01c7a85d$59d0f5c0$0d72e140$@org>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070606101658.03729220@cox.net>
Message-ID: <004901c7a85f$c25183b0$46f48b10$@org>

Someone already is asking me 'what's the difference between 'regular
maintenance' calls and 'bike related' requests. Here's a handy guide. :-)
Regular maintenance - pothole filling, pavement resurfacing, sweeping, tree
trimming, missing signage, broken bike racks, etc on existing facilities
Bike related requests - changes to striping, requests for new facilities
like bike lanes and bike paths, problems with construction projects, signage
needs, requests for new bike parking.
Hope this helps!
Kathy



At 10:08 AM 6/6/2007, you wrote:
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01C7A822.AD721DC0"
>Content-Language: en-us
>
>For the City of San Diego, bike related requests should go through 
>533-3126 (main line for traffic engineering). Joel is still working 
>on bike projects, but they're going to have some other folks also helping.
>For the regular maintenance calls, please continue to call the 527-7500.
>These are both 619 area code.
>Kathy
>
>------------------------------------------
>Kathy Keehan
>Executive Director
>San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
>P.O. Box 34544
>San Diego, CA 92163
>858.487.6063
>execdir at sdcbc.org
>www.sdcbc.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as jimbaross at cox.net
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at
http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org







From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Wed Jun  6 13:27:28 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 13:27:28 EDT
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
Message-ID: <cc4.126acb3a.33984880@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/6/2007 10:14:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
JimBaross at cox.net writes:

> At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense of 
> the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this case 
> where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that people 
> on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> 
> That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled device 
> to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep upright. 
> People overtaking such a device should account for that veering to 
> some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is 
> safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not 
> generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when 
> overtaking someone traveling slower.
> 
> But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> 
----

Jim:

Good stuff.  The problem is we don't know, we hope someone saw it who 
understood vehicular cycling and that the police will do a care and knowledgeable 
investigation.

Given the likelihood of all that happening, I think our role to try our best 
to be the cyclist's voice. 

jon



**************************************
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From execdir at sdcbc.org  Wed Jun  6 13:41:23 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:41:23 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Reminders
Message-ID: <005c01c7a861$e67a7e70$b36f7b50$@org>

Bicycling Magazine is coming to San Diego this Saturday. The BikeTown
program will be giving away bikes to the San Diego essay winners at Tecolote
Shores in Mission Bay on Saturday morning at 10:00 a.m. 

 

 

Ride and Learn on Sunday the 10th. Meet at Cactus County Park, 10300 Ashwood
Street in Lakeside. Meet at 9:15 for 9:30 start. We'll explore the eastern
portion of the San Diego River bike path, and some nice riding in Santee.
This ride will have some bike path, some small residential roads and some
arterials. Good places to practice our road riding skills! Hope to see you
there.

 

Volunteer night, Wednesday June 13, 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. at Standley Recreation
Center, 3585 Governor Drive. Newsletters and fun! Don't miss it!

------------------------------------------

Kathy Keehan

Executive Director

San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

P.O. Box 34544

San Diego, CA 92163

858.487.6063

execdir at sdcbc.org

www.sdcbc.org

 

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From j.eldon at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  6 15:07:52 2007
From: j.eldon at sbcglobal.net (John Eldon)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Reminders
Message-ID: <615814.91788.qm@web52503.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Sorry to dilute your potential ridership, Kathy, but the RAAM departs from Oceanside Pier at 0900 on Sunday. I plan to pop by a bit before 0830 and to stick around until they take off.

Cheers,

John E.

----- Original Message ----
From: Kathy Keehan <execdir at sdcbc.org>
To: Sdcbc <sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2007 10:41:23 AM
Subject: [SDCBC] Reminders
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Ride and Learn on Sunday the 10th. Meet at Cactus
County Park, 10300 Ashwood Street in Lakeside. Meet at 9:15 for 9:30 start. We'll
explore the eastern portion of the San Diego River bike path, and some nice
riding in Santee. This ride will have some bike path, some small residential
roads and some arterials. Good places to practice our road riding skills! Hope
to see you there.




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From jbochsler at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  6 15:54:28 2007
From: jbochsler at yahoo.com (Jack Bochsler)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606095408.034d3010@cox.net>
Message-ID: <352896.96910.qm@web50307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
from a bicycle.

So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears 
as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.

Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a 
vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.

jack

--- Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:

> At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense of 
> the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this case
> 
> where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that people 
> on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> 
> That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled device 
> to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep upright.
> 
> People overtaking such a device should account for that veering to 
> some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is 
> safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not 
> generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when 
> overtaking someone traveling slower.
> 
> But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> 
> At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> >wanted/hoped/desired.
> >
> >jack
> >
> >--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> >
> > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> reporter
> > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> motorcyclist, who
> > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened 
> > in this case, but
> > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> explanation
> > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists
> 
> > as a whole
> > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably should 
> > not be there since
> > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as jbochsler at yahoo.com
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at
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> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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From serge at issakov.org  Wed Jun  6 18:38:09 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 15:38:09 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <352896.96910.qm@web50307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606095408.034d3010@cox.net>
	<352896.96910.qm@web50307.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>

It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely nothing
wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose it's also
possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was passing
him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his left
shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the motorcyclist.

Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
(perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in front
of him.

In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the right side
of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many mornings
along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
Mall<http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t>
.

Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the right
traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for Eastgate, to
get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge left
"vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon after
crossing Executive if not sooner.

Serge



On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
> to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
> turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
> at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
> perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
> from a bicycle.
>
> So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
> 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.
>
> Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
> specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
> bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
> cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
> So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a
> vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.
>
> jack
>
> --- Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense of
> > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this case
> >
> > where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that people
> > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> >
> > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled device
> > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep upright.
> >
> > People overtaking such a device should account for that veering to
> > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is
> > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not
> > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when
> > overtaking someone traveling slower.
> >
> > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> >
> > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> > >wanted/hoped/desired.
> > >
> > >jack
> > >
> > >--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> > >
> > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> > reporter
> > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> > motorcyclist, who
> > > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really happened
> > > in this case, but
> > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> > explanation
> > > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that bicyclists
> >
> > > as a whole
> > > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably should
> > > not be there since
> > > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding behavior.
> > > >
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From jbochsler at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  6 21:29:42 2007
From: jbochsler at yahoo.com (Jack Bochsler)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070607012943.9245.qmail@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Speculation on what happened is pointless - we are only
going to hear the perspective of the motorist, which may 
contain some self-preserving bias.

Reread my mail, you missed my point.  
The topic was 'veering' and the speed/angle of movement 
relative to different vehicle types, not location of
movement.


--- Serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org> wrote:

> It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely
> nothing
> wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose
> it's also
> possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was
> passing
> him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his
> left
> shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the
> motorcyclist.
> 
> Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
> (perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in
> front
> of him.
> 
> In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the
> right side
> of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many
> mornings
> along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
>
Mall<http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t>
> .
> 
> Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the
> right
> traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for
> Eastgate, to
> get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge
> left
> "vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon
> after
> crossing Executive if not sooner.
> 
> Serge
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
> > to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
> > turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
> > at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
> > perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
> > from a bicycle.
> >
> > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
> > 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.
> >
> > Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
> > specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
> > bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
> > cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
> > So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a
> > vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.
> >
> > jack
> >
> > --- Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense
> of
> > > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this
> case
> > >
> > > where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that
> people
> > > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> > >
> > > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled
> device
> > > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep
> upright.
> > >
> > > People overtaking such a device should account for that veering
> to
> > > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is
> > > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not
> > > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when
> > > overtaking someone traveling slower.
> > >
> > > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> > >
> > > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> > > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> > > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> > > >wanted/hoped/desired.
> > > >
> > > >jack
> > > >
> > > >--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> > > reporter
> > > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> > > motorcyclist, who
> > > > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really
> happened
> > > > in this case, but
> > > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> > > explanation
> > > > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that
> bicyclists
> > >
> > > > as a whole
> > > > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably
> should
> > > > not be there since
> > > > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding
> behavior.
> > > > >
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

From j.eldon at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  6 22:10:47 2007
From: j.eldon at sbcglobal.net (John Eldon)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 19:10:47 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] free diverges
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HIEGILPMAHCBKKIEJAIFKEEDCMAA.j.eldon@sbcglobal.net>

Serge, I know you won't concur, but my solution at that particular
intersection and at many like it would be to reconfigure it to eliminate the
free-flowing diverge, which in this case would permit expansion of the park
as a bonus. We could still have a (properly traffic-calmed) right turn only
lane to avoid unnecessarily congesting northbound traffic, but the angular
diverge unnecessarily creates a hazard for bicyclists and pedestrians.

John E.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org
[mailto:sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org]On Behalf Of Serge Issakov
  Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 3:38 PM
  To: Jack Bochsler
  Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org; Jim Baross
  Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle


  It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely nothing
wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose it's also
possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was passing
him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his left
shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the motorcyclist.

  Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
(perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in front
of him.

  In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the right
side of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many
mornings along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
Mall.

  Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the right
traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for Eastgate, to
get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge left
"vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon after
crossing Executive if not sooner.

  Serge


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From serge at issakov.org  Thu Jun  7 01:15:24 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:15:24 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <20070607012943.9245.qmail@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070607012943.9245.qmail@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0706062215k76f58e05tf16d5a1d810c74fd@mail.gmail.com>

Jack,

Whether speculation is pointless or has value depends on the goal, doesn't
it?  If one is trying to determine what actually happened, I agree,
speculation is pointless (and is arguably inappropriate for this forum).
But if we're trying to construct hypothetical but realistic situations based
as much as possible on speculating about what is likely to have happened in
a real incident in order to discuss what might have been done to avoid that
type of crash, then I think it has value, especially if we construct all the
reasonably likely scenarios and discuss what might have been done, if
anything, to avoid crashes in each.  The latter is what I assume we're doing
here; it is what I'm doing, and will proceed accordingly.

I reread your post.  I don't think I misunderstood.  Here is your main
point, if I'm not mistaken.

> So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> the lane to the motorist behind me.

I don't disagree.  I just don't understand the relevance.  The following
applies to any hypothetical lane crossing, not necessarily to actually what
happened in this particular tragedy at all:

Regardless of whether the cyclist's lane crossing appears smooth or veering,
if an overtaking driver hits him in the process, the cyclist violated the
right-of-way (ROW) of the overtaking motorist.  That is, the cyclist
initiated the crossing of the lane without first establishing right of way
to do so.  Some cyclists seem to think all they have to do to establish
right of way to cross a lane in a situation like this is signal.  But that's
incorrect.  You can't just signal and cut in front of someone who is about
to, or is in the process of, passing you.  You have to wait for a
sufficiently long gap, or use negotiation (signal and wait until someone
yields ROW to you, by slowing down to your speed or changing lanes).

Back to what actually happened here, I see all speculation falling under one
of these three general possibilities:

1) The cyclist was maintaining a straight line and the motorcyclist either
didn't notice him at all (in time anyway) and hit him from behind, or the
motorcyclist passed too closely clipping him, later claiming the cyclist
"veered" in front of him.

2) The cyclist moved into the path of the overtaking motorcyclist (perhaps
because he didn't notice the motorcyclist, or maybe because he mistakenly
thought he had the ROW for some reason).

3) The motorcyclist was passing too closely AND the cyclist moved left, but
not much (say a foot or two), though enough to get hit/clipped because the
motorcyclist was passing too closely.

Can anyone think of any other possibiliites?

If (1), then I can't think of anything the cyclist could have done to avoid
this.
If (2), then the crash was arguably largely the fault of the cyclist.
Lesson: always look back with a head turn (learn to do this without veering)
and make sure you have ROW before moving laterally.
if (3), again, I'm not sure what the cyclist could have done, assuming his
relatively slight lateral adjustment was necessary and reasonable.

Serge



On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Speculation on what happened is pointless - we are only
> going to hear the perspective of the motorist, which may
> contain some self-preserving bias.
>
> Reread my mail, you missed my point.
> The topic was 'veering' and the speed/angle of movement
> relative to different vehicle types, not location of
> movement.
>
>
> --- Serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org> wrote:
>
> > It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely
> > nothing
> > wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose
> > it's also
> > possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was
> > passing
> > him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his
> > left
> > shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the
> > motorcyclist.
> >
> > Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
> > (perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in
> > front
> > of him.
> >
> > In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the
> > right side
> > of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many
> > mornings
> > along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
> >
> Mall<
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t
>
> > .
> >
> > Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the
> > right
> > traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for
> > Eastgate, to
> > get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge
> > left
> > "vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon
> > after
> > crossing Executive if not sooner.
> >
> > Serge
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
> > > to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
> > > turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
> > > at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
> > > perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
> > > from a bicycle.
> > >
> > > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > > the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
> > > 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.
> > >
> > > Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
> > > specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
> > > bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
> > > cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
> > > So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a
> > > vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.
> > >
> > > jack
> > >
> > > --- Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense
> > of
> > > > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this
> > case
> > > >
> > > > where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that
> > people
> > > > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> > > >
> > > > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled
> > device
> > > > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep
> > upright.
> > > >
> > > > People overtaking such a device should account for that veering
> > to
> > > > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is
> > > > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not
> > > > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when
> > > > overtaking someone traveling slower.
> > > >
> > > > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> > > >
> > > > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> > > > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> > > > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> > > > >wanted/hoped/desired.
> > > > >
> > > > >jack
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> > > > reporter
> > > > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> > > > motorcyclist, who
> > > > > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really
> > happened
> > > > > in this case, but
> > > > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> > > > explanation
> > > > > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that
> > bicyclists
> > > >
> > > > > as a whole
> > > > > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably
> > should
> > > > > not be there since
> > > > > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding
> > behavior.
> > > > > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
>
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From bikes.alot at cox.net  Thu Jun  7 01:45:07 2007
From: bikes.alot at cox.net (Bicyclist)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 22:45:07 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0706062215k76f58e05tf16d5a1d810c74fd@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070607012943.9245.qmail@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<69ec985b0706062215k76f58e05tf16d5a1d810c74fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606224228.035c8c88@cox.net>

I suspect that an accurate crash report showing the location of 
impact in relation to the width of the roadway... and perhaps the 
condition of the shoulder and/or right-most section of the roadway 
would help figure out what may have happened. The speed of the 
motorcyclist might be interesting too.

At 10:15 PM 6/6/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:
>Jack,
>
>Whether speculation is pointless or has value depends on the goal, 
>doesn't it?  If one is trying to determine what actually happened, I 
>agree, speculation is pointless (and is arguably inappropriate for 
>this forum).  But if we're trying to construct hypothetical but 
>realistic situations based as much as possible on speculating about 
>what is likely to have happened in a real incident in order to 
>discuss what might have been done to avoid that type of crash, then 
>I think it has value, especially if we construct all the reasonably 
>likely scenarios and discuss what might have been done, if anything, 
>to avoid crashes in each.  The latter is what I assume we're doing 
>here; it is what I'm doing, and will proceed accordingly.
>
>I reread your post.  I don't think I misunderstood.  Here is your 
>main point, if I'm not mistaken.
>
> > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > the lane to the motorist behind me.
>
>I don't disagree.  I just don't understand the relevance.  The 
>following applies to any hypothetical lane crossing, not necessarily 
>to actually what happened in this particular tragedy at all:
>
>Regardless of whether the cyclist's lane crossing appears smooth or 
>veering, if an overtaking driver hits him in the process, the 
>cyclist violated the right-of-way (ROW) of the overtaking 
>motorist.  That is, the cyclist initiated the crossing of the lane 
>without first establishing right of way to do so.  Some cyclists 
>seem to think all they have to do to establish right of way to cross 
>a lane in a situation like this is signal.  But that's 
>incorrect.  You can't just signal and cut in front of someone who is 
>about to, or is in the process of, passing you.  You have to wait 
>for a sufficiently long gap, or use negotiation (signal and wait 
>until someone yields ROW to you, by slowing down to your speed or 
>changing lanes).
>
>Back to what actually happened here, I see all speculation falling 
>under one of these three general possibilities:
>
>1) The cyclist was maintaining a straight line and the motorcyclist 
>either didn't notice him at all (in time anyway) and hit him from 
>behind, or the motorcyclist passed too closely clipping him, later 
>claiming the cyclist "veered" in front of him.
>
>2) The cyclist moved into the path of the overtaking motorcyclist 
>(perhaps because he didn't notice the motorcyclist, or maybe because 
>he mistakenly thought he had the ROW for some reason).
>
>3) The motorcyclist was passing too closely AND the cyclist moved 
>left, but not much (say a foot or two), though enough to get 
>hit/clipped because the motorcyclist was passing too closely.
>
>Can anyone think of any other possibiliites?
>
>If (1), then I can't think of anything the cyclist could have done 
>to avoid this.
>If (2), then the crash was arguably largely the fault of the 
>cyclist.  Lesson: always look back with a head turn (learn to do 
>this without veering) and make sure you have ROW before moving laterally.
>if (3), again, I'm not sure what the cyclist could have done, 
>assuming his relatively slight lateral adjustment was necessary and reasonable.
>
>Serge
>
>
>
>On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <<mailto:jbochsler at yahoo.com> 
>jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Speculation on what happened is pointless - we are only
> > going to hear the perspective of the motorist, which may
> > contain some self-preserving bias.
> >
> > Reread my mail, you missed my point.
> > The topic was 'veering' and the speed/angle of movement
> > relative to different vehicle types, not location of
> > movement.
> >
> >
> > --- Serge Issakov <<mailto:serge at issakov.org> serge at issakov.org> wrote:
> >
> > > It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely
> > > nothing
> > > wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose
> > > it's also
> > > possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was
> > > passing
> > > him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his
> > > left
> > > shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the
> > > motorcyclist.
> > >
> > > Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
> > > (perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in
> > > front
> > > of him.
> > >
> > > In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the
> > > right side
> > > of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many
> > > mornings
> > > along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
> > >
> > Mall< 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t  
>  >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the
> > > right
> > > traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for
> > > Eastgate, to
> > > get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge
> > > left
> > > "vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon
> > > after
> > > crossing Executive if not sooner.
> > >
> > > Serge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler 
> <<mailto:jbochsler at yahoo.com>jbochsler at yahoo.com > wrote:
> > > > I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
> > > > to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
> > > > turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
> > > > at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
> > > > perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
> > > > from a bicycle.
> > > >
> > > > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > > > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > > > the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
> > > > 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.
> > > >
> > > > Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
> > > > specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
> > > > bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
> > > > cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
> > > > So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a
> > > > vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.
> > > >
> > > > jack
> > > >
> > > > --- Jim Baross <<mailto:JimBaross at cox.net>JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense
> > > of
> > > > > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this
> > > case
> > > > >
> > > > > where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that
> > > people
> > > > > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled
> > > device
> > > > > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep
> > > upright.
> > > > >
> > > > > People overtaking such a device should account for that veering
> > > to
> > > > > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is
> > > > > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not
> > > > > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when
> > > > > overtaking someone traveling slower.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> > > > > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> > > > > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> > > > > >wanted/hoped/desired.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >jack
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- Tom Jenney 
> <<mailto:Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM>Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> > > > > reporter
> > > > > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> > > > > motorcyclist, who
> > > > > > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really
> > > happened
> > > > > > in this case, but
> > > > > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> > > > > explanation
> > > > > > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that
> > > bicyclists
> > > > >
> > > > > > as a whole
> > > > > > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably
> > > should
> > > > > > not be there since
> > > > > > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding
> > > behavior.
> > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone 
> who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> > 
> <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469>http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 
>
> >
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as bikes.alot at cox.net
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From serge at issakov.org  Thu Jun  7 02:14:26 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:14:26 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Bicyclist Dies In Crash With Motorcycle
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070606224228.035c8c88@cox.net>
References: <69ec985b0706061538r4f89fcdei49b9cc715422dc55@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070607012943.9245.qmail@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<69ec985b0706062215k76f58e05tf16d5a1d810c74fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070606224228.035c8c88@cox.net>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0706062314q42cef029g93591f69db66412d@mail.gmail.com>

That's true.  If the motorcyclist was going way over the speed limit then I
wouldn't think the cyclist would be responsible for cutting in front of
him.  But, it's still a situation to watch out for when we're out there.

Serge


On 6/6/07, Bicyclist <bikes.alot at cox.net> wrote:
>
>  I suspect that an accurate crash report showing the location of impact in
> relation to the width of the roadway... and perhaps the condition of the
> shoulder and/or right-most section of the roadway would help figure out what
> may have happened. The speed of the motorcyclist might be interesting too.
>
> At 10:15 PM 6/6/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:
>
> Jack,
>
> Whether speculation is pointless or has value depends on the goal, doesn't
> it?  If one is trying to determine what actually happened, I agree,
> speculation is pointless (and is arguably inappropriate for this forum).
> But if we're trying to construct hypothetical but realistic situations based
> as much as possible on speculating about what is likely to have happened in
> a real incident in order to discuss what might have been done to avoid that
> type of crash, then I think it has value, especially if we construct all the
> reasonably likely scenarios and discuss what might have been done, if
> anything, to avoid crashes in each.  The latter is what I assume we're doing
> here; it is what I'm doing, and will proceed accordingly.
>
> I reread your post.  I don't think I misunderstood.  Here is your main
> point, if I'm not mistaken.
>
> > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > the lane to the motorist behind me.
>
> I don't disagree.  I just don't understand the relevance.  The following
> applies to any hypothetical lane crossing, not necessarily to actually what
> happened in this particular tragedy at all:
>
> Regardless of whether the cyclist's lane crossing appears smooth or
> veering, if an overtaking driver hits him in the process, the cyclist
> violated the right-of-way (ROW) of the overtaking motorist.  That is, the
> cyclist initiated the crossing of the lane without first establishing right
> of way to do so.  Some cyclists seem to think all they have to do to
> establish right of way to cross a lane in a situation like this is signal.
> But that's incorrect.  You can't just signal and cut in front of someone who
> is about to, or is in the process of, passing you.  You have to wait for a
> sufficiently long gap, or use negotiation (signal and wait until someone
> yields ROW to you, by slowing down to your speed or changing lanes).
>
> Back to what actually happened here, I see all speculation falling under
> one of these three general possibilities:
>
> 1) The cyclist was maintaining a straight line and the motorcyclist either
> didn't notice him at all (in time anyway) and hit him from behind, or the
> motorcyclist passed too closely clipping him, later claiming the cyclist
> "veered" in front of him.
>
> 2) The cyclist moved into the path of the overtaking motorcyclist (perhaps
> because he didn't notice the motorcyclist, or maybe because he mistakenly
> thought he had the ROW for some reason).
>
> 3) The motorcyclist was passing too closely AND the cyclist moved left,
> but not much (say a foot or two), though enough to get hit/clipped because
> the motorcyclist was passing too closely.
>
> Can anyone think of any other possibiliites?
>
> If (1), then I can't think of anything the cyclist could have done to
> avoid this.
> If (2), then the crash was arguably largely the fault of the cyclist.
> Lesson: always look back with a head turn (learn to do this without veering)
> and make sure you have ROW before moving laterally.
> if (3), again, I'm not sure what the cyclist could have done, assuming his
> relatively slight lateral adjustment was necessary and reasonable.
>
> Serge
>
>
>
> On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler < jbochsler at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Speculation on what happened is pointless - we are only
> > going to hear the perspective of the motorist, which may
> > contain some self-preserving bias.
> >
> > Reread my mail, you missed my point.
> > The topic was 'veering' and the speed/angle of movement
> > relative to different vehicle types, not location of
> > movement.
> >
> >
> > --- Serge Issakov < serge at issakov.org> wrote:
> >
> > > It's possible but not very likely that the cyclist did absolutely
> > > nothing
> > > wrong and the motorcyclist simply hit him from behind.  I suppose
> > > it's also
> > > possible and arguably slightly more likely that the motoryclist was
> > > passing
> > > him too closely, this startled the cyclist, who looked back over his
> > > left
> > > shoulder and simultaneously "veered" left into the path of the
> > > motorcyclist.
> > >
> > > Much more likely is that the cyclist did not notice the motorcyclist
> > > (perhaps, ironically, because he was looking for a car) and veered in
> > > front
> > > of him.
> > >
> > > In any case, the method of turning left from the bike lane at the
> > > right side
> > > of the road is all too familar to me.  I see it executed on many
> > > mornings
> > > along n/b Regents Rd at the diverge-intersection with Eastgate
> > >
> > Mall<
> <http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t
> <http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=regents+road+at+eastgate+mall,+san+diego,+ca&sll=32.841796,-117.269474&sspn=0.006761,0.010117&ie=UTF8&ll=32.875897,-117.2177&spn=0.003379,0.005059&z=18&om=1&layer=t>
> >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Cyclists are glued to the bike lane on Regents and veer across the
> > > right
> > > traffic lane that becomes the right arm of the "Y" headed for
> > > Eastgate, to
> > > get into the left arm to continue on Regents.   They rarely merge
> > > left
> > > "vehicularly", which requires starting to merge pretty early, soon
> > > after
> > > crossing Executive if not sooner.
> > >
> > > Serge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/6/07, Jack Bochsler <jbochsler at yahoo.com > wrote:
> > > > I thought about this - not to be pedantic, but veering means
> > > > to turn sharply.  But what would be categorized as a sharp
> > > > turn at 50mph is quite doable and natural at 20mph, and easy
> > > > at 12mph.  So what would appear to be abrupt actions from the
> > > > perspective of a motorized vehicle may well be natural behavior
> > > > from a bicycle.
> > > >
> > > > So when crossing a lane to avoid a freeway on-ramp, what appears
> > > > as a natural, smooth lane crossing to me appears as veering across
> > > > the lane to the motorist behind me. So both parties can be equally
> > > > 'right' and 'wrong' in the same situation.
> > > >
> > > > Although it would be nice if motorists could account for cyclist
> > > > specific behavior, history shows otherwise.  And thinking about
> > > > bicycle peleton behavior, collisions I have seen are a result of
> > > > cyclists moving quicker than the rider behind can react.
> > > > So the onus is clearly on a cyclist to move thru traffic as a
> > > > vehicle would, not as a bicycle can.
> > > >
> > > > jack
> > > >
> > > > --- Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > At the risk of appearing to be too quick to jump to the defense
> > > of
> > > > > the bicyclist... something I/we may be accused/guilty of in this
> > > case
> > > > >
> > > > > where we don't know what really happened.... We do know that
> > > people
> > > > > on bikes and in vehicles do make mistakes.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, bicyclists veer. It is the nature of a two-wheeled
> > > device
> > > > > to need to be steered/veered/moved from side to side to keep
> > > upright.
> > > > >
> > > > > People overtaking such a device should account for that veering
> > > to
> > > > > some degree by using safe passing behaviors - slowing until it is
> > > > > safe to move over to provide safe passing distance. It is not
> > > > > generally sufficient to continue the same roadway position when
> > > > > overtaking someone traveling slower.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, maybe the motorcyclist did try to pass safely....
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:44 AM 6/6/2007, Jack Bochsler wrote:
> > > > > >My interpretation of the "bicyclist veered" statements
> > > > > >is that the bicyclist did not do what the motorist had
> > > > > >wanted/hoped/desired.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >jack
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- Tom Jenney <Thomas.Jenney at Sun.COM> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > They had this story on NBC7/39 TV News this afternoon.  The
> > > > > reporter
> > > > > > > said the cyclist just suddenly veered in front of the
> > > > > motorcyclist, who
> > > > > > > was unable to stop in time.  Maybe that is what really
> > > happened
> > > > > > in this case, but
> > > > > > > it just seems a little dubious when this is the standard
> > > > > explanation
> > > > > > > reported by the media.  It perpetuates the notion that
> > > bicyclists
> > > > >
> > > > > > as a whole
> > > > > > > don't  know what they are doing on the road and probably
> > > should
> > > > > > not be there since
> > > > > > > they end up getting killed due to their erratic riding
> > > behavior.
> > > > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
> knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
> >
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From declan at declan.net  Thu Jun  7 22:53:26 2007
From: declan at declan.net (Declan Fleming)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:53:26 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Carmel Valley/SR56 bike path flooding removed
In-Reply-To: <000701c7a6e5$ca786d40$5f6947c0$@org>
References: <000701c7a6e5$ca786d40$5f6947c0$@org>
Message-ID: <31b0064e0706071953g183bf145k7e15787da045b8e5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi - I went through here this morning and it was very low - maybe 1/2 inch
of water for 5 ft.  No slippery algae.

On the way home, there was even less water, just a trace for about a foot
and a half.

D

On 6/4/07, Kathy Keehan <execdir at sdcbc.org> wrote:
>
>  Word on the street (path) is that City crews are out today pumping out
> water from the flooded section of the SR56 bike path in Carmel Valley. I'm
> hopeful this means we will be able to ride the whole thing, at least for the
> summer, rather than taking the detour. If anyone is out there, please let me
> know the status of the path!
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Kathy Keehan
>
> Executive Director
>
> San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
>
> P.O. Box 34544
>
> San Diego, CA 92163
>
> 858.487.6063
>
> execdir at sdcbc.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
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From jwstump at cox.net  Thu Jun  7 23:59:11 2007
From: jwstump at cox.net (J. W. Stump)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 20:59:11 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Carmel Valley/SR56 bike path flooding removed
References: <000701c7a6e5$ca786d40$5f6947c0$@org>
	<31b0064e0706071953g183bf145k7e15787da045b8e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c7a981$6292c650$6401a8c0@MEXICANSUNRISE>

Mr. Zirkle, City SD Storm Water Manager

What water is being pumped ?

Where does it come from?  and were is it being pumped to?  Is this storm water or water shed water?

Your eyes an ears in the field.
All the best
John Stump
4133 Poplar
City Heights, California 92105
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Declan Fleming 
  To: execdir at sdcbc.org 
  Cc: SDCBC at bikesandiego.org 
  Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 7:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Carmel Valley/SR56 bike path flooding removed


  Hi - I went through here this morning and it was very low - maybe 1/2 inch of water for 5 ft.  No slippery algae.

  On the way home, there was even less water, just a trace for about a foot and a half.

  D


  On 6/4/07, Kathy Keehan <execdir at sdcbc.org> wrote:
    Word on the street (path) is that City crews are out today pumping out water from the flooded section of the SR56 bike path in Carmel Valley. I'm hopeful this means we will be able to ride the whole thing, at least for the summer, rather than taking the detour. If anyone is out there, please let me know the status of the path!

    Kathy



    -----------------------------------------------

    Kathy Keehan

    Executive Director

    San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

    P.O. Box 34544

    San Diego, CA 92163

    858.487.6063

     execdir at sdcbc.org




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From JimBaross at cox.net  Fri Jun  8 02:29:53 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:29:53 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] [CBC] Bike Path Liability/Prokop case result is in
In-Reply-To: <1792857993-1463747838-1181261815@boing.topica.com>
References: <368525423-1463792638-1179862625@boing.topica.com>
	<1792857993-1463747838-1181261815@boing.topica.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070607231906.03eb1c48@cox.net>

At 05:16 PM 6/7/2007, Bob Sutterfield wrote:

>Does the Prokop decision on Class I bikeways (separated right-of-way)
>have any bearing on Class II and Class III (on-street) bikeways?
>Specifically, does immunity extend to bike lane stripes?
 >>>>>>>>

No. The Prokop appeal did not involve Bike Lanes (Class 2) or Bike 
Routes (Class 3) facilities, only Bike Paths (Class 1) and Trails. 
Though the way even advocates of bicycling confuse the titles of the 
various and distinct types of bikeways, I wouldn't bet against some 
attorney somewhere trying to make a case that ANY "bikeway" is 
primarily for recreational purposes therefore it's a trail and no one 
should be held responsible for damages incurred on recreational 
trails.  :-(  :-(

For further information about the Prokop appeal, you could visit and 
read at http://www.cabobike.org/prokop.htm, and the text of the 
courts decision can be found at 
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B184025.PDF .

You may be interested to know that the CABO board has decided to try 
for legislative support for a clarifying change in related State 
codes to straighten out the fuzzy distinction the courts found 
causing them, IMHO, to confuse Bike Paths with Trails. We will need 
to convince sufficient numbers of legislators that Class 1 bikeways, 
normally and properly called Bike Paths, are and were intended to be 
transportation facilities deserving of equal protection and 
responsibility by the owning agency as is applicable to other 
transportation facilities such as roads, Bike Lanes, Bike Routes and 
sidewalks.

CABO is basing this approach partly on the last section of the appeal 
court's decision, quoted here, "Because of the legislative blending 
of paved bike paths (which are used principally for recreation) into 
the bicycle transportation system (which the Legislature established 
to achieve functional commuting needs), it may be appropriate for the 
Legislature to reexamine the trail immunity statute and its 
application to class I bikeways in urban areas.  Unless and until the 
Legislature decides otherwise, however, we conclude no basis exists 
to depart from established precedent."

An alternative approach, to petition the State Supreme Court for an 
opportunity to appeal the Prokop decision, is being pursued as well. 
This effort is being funded primarily by John Forester... as was the 
Prokop appeal effort.

I hope that people realize the time, effort and significant financial 
investment John has been willing to make to try to protect the 
integrity of Bike Paths as transportation facilities... for all of 
us. John, as many of you know, has been involved from the early 70's 
protecting the rights of bicyclists to travel with relative safety 
and efficiency - He is the author of "Effective Cycling" and I 
consider him to be the originator of the concepts of Vehicular 
Cycling in the US. I think he deserves our thanks.

Thank you John!

Jim (presently avoiding Bike Path use) Baross




From execdir at sdcbc.org  Fri Jun  8 12:04:22 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 09:04:22 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Safe Routes to School grants announced
Message-ID: <002101c7a9e6$adada8c0$0908fa40$@org>

We did apply for some money for a bicyclist education program that was not
funded (we knew it was a long shot!) but some good projects in San Diego did
get funding from the State Safe Routes to School program -
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/LocalPrograms/SRTSFinalList.pdf

 

SRTSD11_0002 Chula Vista I Safe Routes to Chula Vista

Schools

New facilities for pedestrians will include an

offset median, bulb outs, setback limit lines and

other enhanced striping, prominent crosswalk

zebra striping, ADA-compliant pedestrian ramps,

non-slip sidewalk grating, flashing yellow

beacons, and "school zone" warning signs

where non-exist now.

78 & 79 40 11 $621,115

 

SRTSD50_0038

Chula Vista

Elementary

School

District

NI Safe Routes to School Chula

Vista

CVESD proposes a 2-year SRTS project. It will

be implemented in 2 pilot schools in year 1 and

expanded to 15 additional schools in year 2.

Strategies include: a) Establish SRTS

Taskforces; b) Conduct parent and community

outreach; c) Implement an incentive program; d)

Establish Parent Safety Patrols or crossing

guard programs; e) Use expert assistance; f)

Conduct an advertising campaign; g) Meet with

city engineers and law enforcement; h) Organize

a steering committee; i) Evaluate objectives to

make program modifications.

78,79 40 11 $499,025

 

SRTSD50_0057

Rady

Children's

Hospital,

Center for

Healthier

Communities

NI

Safe Routes to School

Collaborative Project:

Southeastern San Diego

1. The creation of a SRTS Community Coalition

for political District 4 of San Diego; 2. The

promotion of Walk to School Week events and

collaboration in a community wide Walk to the

Moon Campaign for the 27 elementary schools;

3. Facilitation of school-based education; 4. Six

schools will be selected as "Comprehensive

Program" schools.

11 $499,816

 

SRTSD11_0005 San Diego

County I Winter Gardens Boulevard

Sidewalk and Bicycle Path

Sidewalk and bike trail along one block of a busy

boulevard for students on their way to and from

school.

77 36 11 $517,000

 

SRTSD11_0007 San Marcos I

Replace Traffic and school

crossing signs to fluorescent

yellow-green signs

Replace citywide school signs from obsolete dull

yellow signs to more visible fluorescent yellowgreen

signs at various school locations.

74 38 11 $44,000

 

 

 

------------------------------------------

Kathy Keehan

Executive Director

San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

P.O. Box 34544

San Diego, CA 92163

858.487.6063

execdir at sdcbc.org

www.sdcbc.org

 

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From execdir at sdcbc.org  Fri Jun  8 19:32:21 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 16:32:21 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: [Cyclo-Vets] Bike Path Cleanup
Message-ID: <006001c7aa25$4383c710$ca8b5530$@org>

Would be great to have a few SDCBC folks come out and help with this effort!

Kathy

 

From: Cyclo-Vets at yahoogroups.com [mailto:Cyclo-Vets at yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of juliehesq at aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:01 PM
To: Cyclo-Vets at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Cyclo-Vets] Bike Path Cleanup

 

Cyclo-Vets,

It is time to give back to the community...

We will be cleaning up the bike path next to the stadium and the tank farm 
on Saturday, June 16, 2007 at 11:00 am. We will clean this bike path from 
where it leaves the stadium to where it ends at the terminus of Murphy
Canyon 
Road. So, come ride with us next Saturday, enjoy a cup of coffee; throw on 
some more comfortable shoes and help clean the path. It is important to our 
image in the community that we have good representation and anyone observing

sees that Cyclo-Vets do give back!

Thank you for your participation.

Julie Hamilton
President



************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.

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From pje at efgh.com  Fri Jun  8 22:41:52 2007
From: pje at efgh.com (Philip Erdelsky)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:41:52 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] Lower Rose Creek Restoration Project
Message-ID: <466A1370.40606@efgh.com>

At the north end of the Rose Creek Bike Path (near Mission Bay Dr. and
Damon Ave.) I noticed two new signs for something called the
Lower Rose Creek Restoration Project:

      http://www.efghmaps.com/temp/29699.jpg
      http://www.efghmaps.com/temp/29700.jpg

It's not clear what effect this project will have on the bike path, but
let's hope it improves this somewhat dilapidated area.

-- Philip Erdelsky

From rduquete at 911law.com  Sat Jun  9 00:12:20 2007
From: rduquete at 911law.com (Richard Duquette)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:12:20 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] ignoring a detour & bike lane closed signs
Message-ID: <200706090412.l594CG7l029666@ms-smtp-02.socal.rr.com>

List mates                                   Confidential & Privileged

Id like to get your perspective regarding a potential issue that 
involves a bicyclist that (for sake of discussion) ignored a detour & 
bike lane closed sign.

The cyclist is alleged to have then ridden close to the right side of 
the road edge cement barrier (that was constructed for a quarter 
mile) in order to get to his destination on the late afternoon 
weekend.Taking the detour would have taken her about 3 miles out of her way.

As luck would have it, a young man drove his car around the slight 
right bend in the road that was partially obscured by the cement and 
plywood barrier in the slow lane edge and side swiped the cyclist, 
causing injuries and ripping off the cars right side mirror at the same time.

The defense is that the cyclist should have ridden out of his way 
several miles,even tho he has the right to the road as a cyclist, and 
avoided riding near a cement barrier that  partially hid him from 
oncoming traffic.

I suspect the motorist should and could have driven in the fast lane 
and had better vision, and  the officer suspects the motorist was 
traveling too fast for the conditions...construction site and all 
with the barriers.

Do you feel the cyclist is with out fault or would you  apportion 
responsibility in this case. If so, what are the percentages.??

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Richard L. Duquette
Bicycle Injury Lawyer since 1983
Carlsbad, CA
760-730-0500
www.911law.com  
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From trevorspoke at cox.net  Sat Jun  9 03:00:50 2007
From: trevorspoke at cox.net (Trevor Bourget)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:00:50 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] [CBC] Bike Path Liability/Prokop case result is in
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070607231906.03eb1c48@cox.net>
References: <368525423-1463792638-1179862625@boing.topica.com>
	<1792857993-1463747838-1181261815@boing.topica.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070607231906.03eb1c48@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20070609070047.MMCB29545.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net>

At 11:29 PM 6/7/2007, Jim Baross wrote:
>You may be interested to know that the CABO board has decided to try 
>for legislative support for a clarifying change in related State 
>codes to straighten out the fuzzy distinction the courts found 
>causing them, IMHO, to confuse Bike Paths with Trails. We will need 
>to convince sufficient numbers of legislators that Class 1 bikeways, 
>normally and properly called Bike Paths, are and were intended to be 
>transportation facilities deserving of equal protection and 
>responsibility by the owning agency as is applicable to other 
>transportation facilities such as roads, Bike Lanes, Bike Routes and
>sidewalks.

I do not agree that a separated paved bike route is properly called a 
path. I suggest we will do everyone a favor by calling these bikeways 
"roads", i.e. a bike road. Nobody would want to call SR243 a "Car 
Path" or a "Multi-Use Road". I suggest we would want to amend 
Streets&Highways Code section to differentiate between recreational 
asphalt sidewalks such as the one around Lake Miramar and 
transportational routes that should be accepted officially into the 
local agency's highway network as a non-motorized road.

I suggest leaving the sidewalks out of the discussion. Agencies do 
not want to be held accountable to maintain sidewalks as 
transportation facilities, and do not maintain them that way now. 
Anyway, sidewalks are almost always part of a highway. There are a 
few stand-alone "pedways", but we should let ped advocates solve 
their own problems.

>I hope that people realize the time, effort and significant 
>financial investment John has been willing to make to try to protect 
>the integrity of Bike Paths as transportation facilities... for all of us.

I would say that John has been protecting our rights to be treated as 
rightful users of the transportation system. It's hard to fight being 
shoved onto freeway side paths, but at least we can have these paved 
facilities maintained as decent travel ways.

>I think he deserves our thanks.

I hope this should be obvious to everyone. But if it needs to be 
stated, I'll add my sincere appreciation as well.

-- Trevor Bourget 


From tony at tonypietsch.com  Sat Jun  9 07:26:24 2007
From: tony at tonypietsch.com (Tony Pietsch)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 04:26:24 -0700
Subject: [SDCBC] ignoring a detour & bike lane closed signs
In-Reply-To: <200706090412.l594CG7l029666@ms-smtp-02.socal.rr.com>
References: <200706090412.l594CG7l029666@ms-smtp-02.socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <027b01c7aa89$07750720$6401a8c0@tonyvaio>

Hello Richard,
 
I'd like to use this as a test of my LCI training and my understanding of
the discussions held in the SDCBC board meetings and on our email lists -- I
don't pretend to be a legal expert, and I'd like to hear from Jim Baross and
John Forrester as to whether my understanding and interpretation of current
law is correct.
 
First, I think that you've addressed the majority of the responsibility
issue in the first sentence.  The BIKE LANE CLOSED is an unmistakable
warning TO THE MOTORIST that they will have to share the right hand lane
with cyclists. Some might argue that this is too similar to the ROAD CLOSED
signage with detour that requires ALL non-local VEHICULAR TRAFFIC to take
the detour.  Bicycling is a right (no license is required to be able to
ride) while motoring is a privilege that all motorists pay for and are
tested for competency before being licenced to drive on their own.  That is
the basis for the fundamental difference in interpretation of the signage.
 
Consequently, the detour sign here is a RECOMMENDATION to cyclists
uncomfortable with the temporary loss of a previously designated bike route,
and provides an alternative that will utilize (we hope) alternate routing
that does fit into that category.  In no way does the detour sign require a
cyclist to use the detour if it does not require a motorist to use that same
detour.
 
Under strict interpretation of current law as I understand it this places
the entire responsibility on the motorist for the accident -- the old adage
that ignorance of the law regarding signage (and this might include members
of a jury if one is present) is no excuse for not following the law, and
that should be the end of the argument.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------- BUT
 
Getting into the reality of education level and expectations of both
motorists and cyclists is where the remainder of your discussion gets fuzzy.
1. Yes, most motorists and inexperienced cyclists interpret the BIKE LANE
CLOSED to mean the same for bicycles as ROAD CLOSED does for motorists, and
2. consequently the expectation would be that cyclists would be required to
follow the detour sign (but they're not required to; it's just a common
misunderstanding perpetuated by the similarities in the signage wording).
3. Yes, the cyclist could have made her/him-self more visible by riding
closer to the center of the right lane (taking the lane), but fear drives
inexperienced riders as close to the right as they can travel in the
mistaken belief that it is safer to ride there.
4. Absolutely the motorist should have moved to the left hand lane when his
vision was obscured by the curve and his rate of travel.