[SDCBC] Fwd: Re: FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.

Tue Feb 13 00:55:40 EST 2007

I'll chime in (late, as I've come home after a long weekend), since 
Dan isn't on this list to defend himself, and I'm sure he won't mind 
me speaking for him/us.

I would love see a system as Gene describes.  For example, I could 
imagine a "road use" module in middle school PE class, where students 
would use bicycles as the vehicles.  That could give them partial 
credit for driving school when they are old enough - which would be a 
good "carrot" for doing well in the middle school class.

Although our short term goal is to use the video to help teach 
cyclists, our long term goals are broader than that - public service 
announcements, etc., targeted at the general population.

In order to have a system that Gene describes, the cyclists that 
speak for cyclists need to be knowledgeable - hence the need for 
specific training of cyclists.  Could you imagine if someone wanted 
help to set up a training program and contacted the cyclists from the 
news story, because they were the "experts"?

Brian

At 05:57 PM 2/11/2007, Gene Carman wrote:
>Here Dan points to the fundamental problem of lack of 
>education...  of users of the roadway.  As long as all the users of 
>the roadway are not familiar with each others rights and the rules 
>involved...  then the problem will continue to exist.
>
>You and Dan and even John Forester will continue to insist that 
>cyclists must be trained in some separate manner from motorists and 
>that motorists don't need any further training... but since there is 
>very little infrastructure to reach cyclists, more new cyclists will 
>hit the road than can ever be trained in a life time, by the current 
>methods.
>
>The ideal way to reach all users of the road is to simply 
>incorporate training in an already well established "path" of 
>training... either into the current school system where "use of the 
>roads" should be a subject as important as health classes and PE, or 
>in a longer form of drivers ed that goes beyond the basics and 
>teaches the ethics and responsibilities of all the road users.
>
>Until then, only a few cyclists will ever gain the knowledge of 
>which Dan speaks.  Apparently even Monica Howe, the outeach 
>coordinator of the LA County Bicycle Coalition, who should be well 
>familiar with this information...  was not.  How then do we expect 
>college freshmen, just cycling to class, to ever gain this knowledge?
>
>
>>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:02:32 -0800
>>From: Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net>
>>Subject: Re: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
>>Sender: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org
>>To: Serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>, DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net
>>Cc: San Diego County Bicycle Coalition <sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>,
>>  Brian DeSousa <bpd at briandesousa.com>
>>Reply-to: Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net
>>
>>Serge,
>>You asked: "What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, 
>>more importantly, to stop thinking like this?"
>>  .
>>The concept is easy, just make them aware of their road rights and 
>>responsibilities; this you do with education not stripes.  The 
>>implementation OTOH is difficult, since it takes time for people's 
>>emotions to catch up.  Even if you learn and "know" in the 
>>intellectual sense that you as a cyclist have the right to control 
>>lanes for your own safety, it takes time before you "feel" 
>>comfortable doing this.  We have found that video showing the 
>>on-bike cyclist perspective helps most people overcome their 
>>aversion to controlling lanes and accelerates the process of 
>>getting them to act like drivers and feel comfortable doing it.
>>  .
>>Serge also asked: "Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?"
>>  .
>>Just go to our main website 
>><http://www.DualChase.com>www.DualChase.com and click on the video 
>>sample link to the CyclistView website near the bottom of the home 
>>page.  This will play the clips on two slides from our Integrated 
>>Traffic Cycling(TM) introduction.  The first slide shows lane 
>>control on a 4 lane road as part of a description of the skills 
>>needed by cyclists to act as vehicle drivers, the second is the 
>>side by side comparison Serge wants you to see, which demonstrates 
>>very nicely that all other variables (cyclist, bike, speed-15mph, 
>>trafic conditions, lane widths, etc.) being equal, the way 
>>motorists pass cyclists is determined by the cyclists' lane 
>>position.  Too far right, and the cyclist will be pased 
>>uncomfortably closely within the same lane, far enough left and the 
>>motorists make lane changes.  These two clips wer taken less than 
>>two minutes apart during afternoon commute traffic.  This effect is 
>>quite striking, and in practice very nice for those cyclists that 
>>learn to control lanes.
>>  .
>>I should also note that on Friday afternoon, I showed Monica Howe, 
>>the oureach coordinator of the LA County Bicycle Coalition, our 
>>inclusive advocacy briefing, and explained our right to use road 
>>space (much centering on the flowdown from CVC21200 to 21650 to 
>>21654, and the further restrictions of 21202) some of which she 
>>wasn't aware (didn't know about CVC21202 exception (a)(4) for 
>>example).  Since Monica has become the media darling for the LA 
>>times and TV news (she was in the Road Wars! piece), and is 
>>interested in imporving her traffic skills, Brian and I will be 
>>training her and some other LACBC members in the near future.  My 
>>goal in this work is to make the advocates more aware of their 
>>rights and be better spokespeople for integrated cycling and the 
>>rest of the cycling behavior spectrum.
>>  .
>>  .
>>
>>- Dan Gutierrez -<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = 
>>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>>
>>Long Beach, CA
>>
>>(562) 244-4145 Cell
>>
>>(310) 336-3075 Office
>>
>>(800) 616-4714 Pager
>>
>>Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net
>>
>>
>>
>>Organizational Affiliations
>>
>>Local:
>>
>>Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair
>>
>>Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President
>>
>>South Bay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
>>
>>
>>
>>State:
>>
>>CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director
>>
>>CABO Education Committee Co-Chair
>>
>>Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee Member
>>
>>
>>
>>National:
>>
>>League of American Bicyclists (LAB), Certified Instructor, LCI #962
>>
>>LAB Education Committee Member
>>
>>Dual Chase Productions LLC, 
>>Co-Creator  <http://www.dualchase.com/>www.DualChase.com
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: serge.issakov at gmail.com [ mailto:serge.issakov at gmail.com]On 
>>Behalf Of Serge Issakov
>>Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:37 AM
>>To: DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net
>>Cc: San Diego County Bicycle Coalition; Dan Gutierrez; Brian DeSousa
>>Subject: Re: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
>>
>>
>>At least they acknowledged the concept of cyclists acting like 
>>vehicle drivers, though they misrepresented what it is ("bikes 
>>acting like cars"), did not give a hint about how well it works, 
>>and basically quickly dismissed it ("just won't work in L.A" - no 
>>mention of why) and moved on to the tired old "solution": 
>>separation of cyclists from motor traffic through the use of  "facilities".
>>
>>The clip of the KFI road cyclist Michael Clarke at 0:55 being 
>>closely passed in a narrow lane looked like it was a typical 
>>southern CA arterial, the type on which Dan Gutierrez and Brian 
>>DeSousa have filmed and shown dramatically the effect of riding as 
>>far right as Clarke is shown to be riding versus riding just a 
>>couple of feet further left.  In the former case  -- using the 
>>Clarke "separation style", if you will --  most drivers are invited 
>>to pass by squeezing into the narrow lane with the cyclist, just 
>>like it was shown on this news report.  In the latter case, by 
>>riding in a lane-controlling position, everyone changes lanes to 
>>pass, and the cyclist has plenty of room.
>>
>>In addition to his riding style, Clarke reveals why he has the 
>>issues that he has through his own words of deference, "there is no 
>>sense of sharing, it is a battle for space.  I have to battle for 
>>my five inches out there".  Battle?  Five inches?  Can anyone say, 
>>"self-fulfilling prophecy"?  At the end of the piece, at 3:22, 
>>Clarke discloses more about his sense of inferiority: "Right now 
>>the cars rule.  It's their road.  And it's my job to go in there 
>>and figure a way in and out of them".
>>
>>What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more 
>>importantly, to stop thinking like this?
>>
>>Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?
>>
>>Serge
>>
>>
>>
>>On 2/8/07, Darryl MacKenzie 
>><<mailto:DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net>DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net > wrote:
>>Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>>Hi All,
>>I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
>>and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
>>story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
>>hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better with
>>the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
>><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68 
>>
>>Troy
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