From trevorspoke at cox.net  Thu Feb  1 10:00:58 2007
From: trevorspoke at cox.net (Trevor Bourget)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 07:00:58 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] MapQuest aerial view function
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0701310902k255040a0k67d20cfd73f1e3fa@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <569388.47279.qm@web52501.mail.yahoo.com>
	<69ec985b0701310902k255040a0k67d20cfd73f1e3fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070201150059.CHKN1343.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net>

At 09:02 AM 1/31/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:
>Thanks.  I didn't realize mapquest added this future.  I stopped 
>using it a year or two ago.
>The satellite view at <http://maps.google.com>maps.google.com does the same.
>The hybrid mode allows you to overlay the map on the satellite view.
>
>Anyone use both and prefer one over the other for any reason?

I like MapQuest's ability to discard freeways from its consideration 
of best/shortest/fastest route. The resulting trip proposed for a 
motorist is almost always the one I'd choose to bike.
-- Trevor 
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From j.eldon at sbcglobal.net  Thu Feb  1 10:05:04 2007
From: j.eldon at sbcglobal.net (John Eldon)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 07:05:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [SDCBC] MapQuest aerial view function
Message-ID: <359295.58558.qm@web52501.mail.yahoo.com>

I concur. I complained vociferously a few years ago, when MapQuest [fortunately, briefly] discontinued my two favorite functions, "shortest distance" and "avoid highways [sic]." 

John E.

----- Original Message ----
From: Trevor Bourget <trevorspoke at cox.net>
To: Serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>; John Eldon <j.eldon at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2007 7:00:58 AM
Subject: Re: [SDCBC] MapQuest aerial view function



At 09:02 AM 1/31/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:

Thanks.  I didn't realize
mapquest added this future.  I stopped using it a year or two
ago.

The satellite view at
maps.google.com does the same.

The hybrid mode allows you to overlay the map on the satellite view.



Anyone use both and prefer one over the other for any
reason?

I like MapQuest's ability to discard freeways from its consideration of
best/shortest/fastest route. The resulting trip proposed for a motorist
is almost always the one I'd choose to bike.

-- Trevor

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From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  2 07:23:02 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 04:23:02 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Eastgate Mall, Regents Road: Signs in the bike lane.
Message-ID: <45C32D26.5010807@earthlink.net>

Dear All:
	1) Bridge Pointe Corporate Center on Eastgate Mall is doing a building 
project. It's oll on their property  but some barricades blocking off a 
driveway under construction are in the bike lane. This is on Eastgate 
Mall westbound, between the bridge over the 805 and Town Center Drive.
	2) For no reason I could see a couple of "detour" signs, one with an 
arrow right into that UCSD housing unit, were in the bile lane on 
southbound Regens Road between Eastgate Mall and La Jolla Village Drive.

Robert Leone


From nealhe at cox.net  Sun Feb  4 17:27:22 2007
From: nealhe at cox.net (Neal Henderson)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:27:22 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] RAAM 2007
In-Reply-To: <20070116222739.43331.qmail@web52510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004101c748ab$a3c1c0e0$6901a8c0@NealDesk>

Hello John,

 

Very nice bike.

 

But your seat is too high.

 

Cheers,

 

Neal

 

 

  _____  

From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org]
On Behalf Of John Eldon
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 14:28
To: Kathy Keehan; Sdcbc
Subject: [SDCBC] RAAM 2007

 

FYI: RAAM 2007 will start on Sunday 10 June at Oceanside Pier, probably at
0900 again. I plan to be there again with my 1959 Capo, unless I have
finished restoring my all-original 1960 (pictured) by then; perhaps I'll
score another giveaway water bottle. :) 

Cheers,

John E.

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From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  4 21:05:43 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 18:05:43 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Well, I called the cops about some bike lane parkers....
Message-ID: <45C690F7.4040907@earthlink.net>

Well, I called the police this AM about four cars parked in the Nobel 
Ave bikelane, all in front of the Trieste Apartments just west of 
Regents Road. I figured FOUR parking tickets in one go would be a little 
  more enticing for the SDPD on a slow pre-superbowl Sunday....

The dispatcher over at the cop shop phone number was pleasantly 
surprised when I gave her vehicle descriptions and plate numbers. Alas, 
I'd not enough note paper on hand to leave nasty notes on 
windshields.... Not that such notes would be good diplomacy.

Robert


From JimBaross at cox.net  Mon Feb  5 22:01:38 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:01:38 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: VENTURA Mardi Gras Century Celebration 07'
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070205190037.03958a48@cox.net>


>
>Subject: VENTURA Mardi Gras Century Celebration 07'
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:46:13 -0800
>From: "Liz Bailey" <lbailey at affinitygroup.com>
>To:

>Hello Friends on the Road,
>
>I'd like to personally invite yall to Ventura for a Great Ride & 
>Wonderful Party we're having @ Ventura Harbor Village on 
>2/24/07.  This ride is a Amgen CA Coast Classic Training Ride & will 
>be held in the AM along the route of the Amgen CA TOUR Race which 
>will roar by the same afternoon! .
>
>Afterwards we've got LIVE Zydeco Music, bellydancers, beads, prizes 
>& delicious all-you-can-eat buffet including GUMBO @ the legendary 
>GREEK @ The Harbor!  We are a Federal 501c Nonproft & all funds are 
>going to charity. Please call me if you have any questions after you 
>read the press release below or go to ACTIVE.com/mardigras.
>
>See yall on the road!
>
>Liz Bailey
>President
>VENTURAVELO.ORG
>805-815-5258 cell
>
>PRESS RELEASE
>
>   Saturday, February 24th, MARDI GRAS comes to the Southland... 
> California's Southland that is!  In the picturesque village of 
> Ventura Harbor, a couple of Louisiana transplants are producing a 
> BIG Mardi Gras Celebration at The Greek at Ventura Harbor 
> Village.  Funds raised will go to NOLA Habitat for Humanity, The 
> Arthritis Foundation and Ventura County's bicycle paths all through 
> local non-profit, VENTURA VELO.ORG. The MARDI GRAS CENTURY BIKE 
> RIDE  begins at 7AM, serving traditional King Cake & Coffee.  A HOT 
> Breakfast Buffet will be available @ a nominal fee. Riders, coming 
> from all over the U.USA, will follow a rigorous 100 mile scenic 
> tour of Ventura, Ojai, Santa Paula, Moorpark, Camarillo, Oxnard and 
> Port Hueneme.  There is FULL SAG  support, with bike mechanics, 
> roving SAG trucks and several rest stops where volunteers will hand 
> out New Orleans' Po-boy sandwiches! The Half Century is 60 miles, 
> following a similar path as the Century, but with a shorter return 
> back to The Greek at the Harbor. The Quarter Century  is an easy 25 
> miles,  staying in Ventura and is designed to be a fun & safe ride 
> for Families. The MARDI GRAS Celebration Dinner Party will get 
> underway @ 1 PM back at Ventura Harbor's The GREEK, for riders, 
> guests, sponsors and is open to the public.  Authentic Cajun music 
> will be provided by the Zydeco Zippers  and DANCERS are WELCOMED! 
> Beautiful Bellydancers, buckets of Mardi Gras beads plus plenty of 
> PRIZES for Best Costumes & Best Decorated Bicycle will be awarded. 
> Price includes a special New Orleans All-You-Can-Eat Buffet with 
> authentic GUMBO ! A No-Host Bar will also be available. Tickets are 
> available for the Mardi Gras Celebration Party  online at 
> ACTIVE.com or by mail. Prices are $20 ($25 @ door), $10 (ages 
> 6-12), Kids 5 & under FREE! Bicyclist Registration is $50 at 
> ACTIVE.com and is $60 @ the door.  All donations are tax 
> deductible.  Sponsors include: Ventura Harbor Village, The GREEK, 
> The Bike Depot, Ojai Valley Inn, Performance Bikes, Trader Joe's, 
> Green Thumb, StarBucks, & RoadID.com. Avid cyclist, Paul Callaway, 
> founded VENTURA VELO after the 2005 storms took out parts of 
> Ventura County bike paths. Distressed about so much damage but no 
> funds for repairs, Callaway started the nonprofit with a handful of 
> bike enthusiasts and a charter to raise funds to help.  The 
> organization first held a Three Harbors Tour Bike Ride September 
> 2005, just days after Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf.  The Tour was 
> a success, funding the group's startup and attracting over a 
> hundred riders.  The  Organization's Board has since made 
> contributions to Katrina/Rita victims via Habitat for Humanity, The 
> Arthritis Foundation's California Coast Classic as well as 
> continuing to improve, develop and maintain Ventura County Bike 
> paths, safety & fellowship. As the Gulf Coast continues the painful 
> rebuild, Ventura Velo decided the Mardi Gras ride should continue 
> help aid the efforts of New Orleans Area Habitat for 
> Humanity.  V.V.President and native Louisianian, Liz Bailey 
> explains, "Holding a Mardi Gras Celebration Bike Ride is a great 
> way to get people into the spirit of Mardi Gras. I've heard folks 
> say they'd like to help New Orleans, but don't know how.  By 
> participating in the VENTURA MARDI GRAS , they will get a REAL 
> taste of Mardi Gras, help Habitat in New Orleans, plus we've got a 
> lot of work to do here locally improving bicycle paths & 
> safety.  It's a win-win situation, so Yal'l come join us for some 
> great cajun music, food & fun. For more information on the February 
> 24th 07'MARDI GRAS CENTURY EL  BRATION & BIKE RIDE go to: 
> www.venturavelo.org,  call 805.815-5258 or write Ventura Velo, P.O. 
> 6101, Ventura CA 93006.

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From DarrylMacKenzie at Cox.Net  Fri Feb  9 02:08:48 2007
From: DarrylMacKenzie at Cox.Net (Darryl MacKenzie)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 23:08:48 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
Message-ID: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>

Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.  

Hi All,

I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better with
the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
Troy




__________ NOD32 2047 (20070208) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com



From bikes.alot at cox.net  Fri Feb  9 11:28:27 2007
From: bikes.alot at cox.net (Bicyclist)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:28:27 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.
	cox.net>
References: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209082719.0384c808@cox.net>

Here is a link to the source/station's web site.

>Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:00:00 -0800
>To: caboforum at topica.com
>From: Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net>
>Subject: LA "Road Wars" on NBC news
>
>Here's where what aired Feb 6th can be viewed.
>
>http://video.nbc4.tv/player/?id=60821
>
>or here for the text of the article.
>
>http://www.nbc4.tv/traffic/10952985/detail.html?dl=mainclick .
>
>BTW, a solution offered in the broadcast included providing 
>separated facilities/bike paths. Note that CABO is pursing a court 
>appeal to overturn precedent which has been allowing the City of LA 
>and others to be immune from any liability for their lack of proper 
>construction or maintenance of their bike paths.
>Ride at your own risk on a bike path because if you are injured 
>there the city can disallow any claims, claims that they would pay 
>if you had been riding on public roads, bike lanes and sidewalks!


At 11:08 PM 2/8/2007, Darryl MacKenzie wrote:
>Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>
>Hi All,
>
>I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
>and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
>story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
>hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better with
>the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
>Troy



From bmatella at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  9 12:02:57 2007
From: bmatella at sbcglobal.net (Bill Matella)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:02:57 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
References: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
Message-ID: <003a01c74c6c$26944a60$81ecfea9@yourm5d4u9r2uv>

All,

February is "Sweeps" month.  Sadly, fairness and accuracy take a back seat 
to accuracy during this period.

Bill Matella
San Diego

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darryl MacKenzie" <DarrylMacKenzie at Cox.Net>
To: <Cyclo-Vets at yahoogroups.com>; "San Diego County Bicycle Coalition" 
<sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:08 PM
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.


> Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
> and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
> story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
> hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better 
> with
> the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
> Troy
>
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2047 (20070208) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as bmatella at sbcglobal.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at 
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to 
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> 



From bmatella at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  9 12:07:53 2007
From: bmatella at sbcglobal.net (Bill Matella)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:07:53 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
References: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
Message-ID: <005001c74c6c$d67ccab0$81ecfea9@yourm5d4u9r2uv>

Oops! I meant to say fairness and accuracy take a back seat to 
sensationalism.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darryl MacKenzie" <DarrylMacKenzie at Cox.Net>
To: <Cyclo-Vets at yahoogroups.com>; "San Diego County Bicycle Coalition" 
<sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:08 PM
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.


> Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
> and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
> story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
> hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better 
> with
> the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
> Troy
>
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2047 (20070208) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as bmatella at sbcglobal.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at 
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to 
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> 



From JimBaross at cox.net  Fri Feb  9 14:05:17 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 11:05:17 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Redlands Bicycle Classic
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110259.03859a10@cox.net>

FYI since it's nearby.
Just wondering, how this event compares to San Diego events?

.......................................
The 2007 Redlands Bicycle Classic Returns to What it Was

The next generation of cycling legends will 
sprint across the finish line at the 23rd Annual 
Redlands Bicycle Classic, March 22?25, 2007, in 
Redlands, California. This year?s event, part of 
the 2007 National Racing Calendar, echoes the 
past, bringing the heart and history of the Classic back to the community.

Competitor editor Greg Pressler flies high above 
the fitness rich country of Israel.

?We are excited to bring the Classic back to its 
original glory,? says Brian King, Race Director 
of the Redlands Classic. ?We expect Redlands to 
be one of the most anticipated events on the 2007 National Cycling Calendar.?

Since 1985, the Redlands Bicycle Classic has felt 
the speed, dedication, and unbridled talent of 
numerous professional cyclists from around the 
world. They arrived as eager participants and 
left as legends, each adding to the prestige and 
integrity of the event. Aside from the 
professional talent, the Classic?s public races 
provide the foundation for local riders to shine. 
This year?s event culminates the history of the 
race, providing events for everyone.

A Time Trial Prologue on March 22 will kick off 
the 4-day stage race consisting of 300 
professional male and female cyclists. A 
challenging new road race course for stage one on 
March 23rd will be announced in the coming weeks. 
The Classic heads downtown for the professional 
criterium course on Saturday, March 24th, and 
culminates with the famous Sunset Road Race on Sunday March 25th.

Public races return to this year?s event on March 
24 with courses in downtown Redlands for riders 
aged 3 and above. In addition, for recreational 
cyclists, the return of the Redlands Rotary Ride 
taking hundreds of participants on a scenic 
journey through Redlands and surrounding areas, 
with levels of difficulty and distances for all 
cyclists. The Classic public races will wrap up 
with criteriums for amateur USCF licensed riders on March 25.

Classic spectators will have several 
opportunities to view a sea of jerseys flying by 
in the hills of Redlands as well as at the Citrus 
Avenue start/finish line. There will be a 
Festival with live entertainment, food and 
beverages for sale, as well as a beer garden. For 
information on participating in reaching hundreds 
of cyclists through the Festival, visit www.redlandsclassic.com/expo/.

More information, including race times, 
distances, and volunteer opportunities, visit www.redlandsclassic.com.



From serge at issakov.org  Fri Feb  9 19:17:43 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:17:43 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Redlands Bicycle Classic
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110259.03859a10@cox.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209110259.03859a10@cox.net>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0702091617r39a19cfak8ca17e32a53b5e9f@mail.gmail.com>

To start, I don't think we have any all-pro events in San Diego, certainly
not multi-day stage races in which only pros participate.

But the USCF amateur crit races that are up at Redlands are probably
comparable to our races, including SDBC's Barrio Logan Grand Prix, which, by
the way, is on Cinquo de Mayo this year.  There are usually (if not always)
some pros that participate in the Pro/1/2 race at Barrio.

Serge



On 2/9/07, Jim Baross <JimBaross at cox.net> wrote:
>
> FYI since it's nearby.
> Just wondering, how this event compares to San Diego events?
>
> .......................................
> The 2007 Redlands Bicycle Classic Returns to What it Was
>
> The next generation of cycling legends will
> sprint across the finish line at the 23rd Annual
> Redlands Bicycle Classic, March 22?25, 2007, in
> Redlands, California. This year's event, part of
> the 2007 National Racing Calendar, echoes the
> past, bringing the heart and history of the Classic back to the community.
>
> Competitor editor Greg Pressler flies high above
> the fitness rich country of Israel.
>
> "We are excited to bring the Classic back to its
> original glory," says Brian King, Race Director
> of the Redlands Classic. "We expect Redlands to
> be one of the most anticipated events on the 2007 National Cycling
> Calendar."
>
> Since 1985, the Redlands Bicycle Classic has felt
> the speed, dedication, and unbridled talent of
> numerous professional cyclists from around the
> world. They arrived as eager participants and
> left as legends, each adding to the prestige and
> integrity of the event. Aside from the
> professional talent, the Classic's public races
> provide the foundation for local riders to shine.
> This year's event culminates the history of the
> race, providing events for everyone.
>
> A Time Trial Prologue on March 22 will kick off
> the 4-day stage race consisting of 300
> professional male and female cyclists. A
> challenging new road race course for stage one on
> March 23rd will be announced in the coming weeks.
> The Classic heads downtown for the professional
> criterium course on Saturday, March 24th, and
> culminates with the famous Sunset Road Race on Sunday March 25th.
>
> Public races return to this year's event on March
> 24 with courses in downtown Redlands for riders
> aged 3 and above. In addition, for recreational
> cyclists, the return of the Redlands Rotary Ride
> taking hundreds of participants on a scenic
> journey through Redlands and surrounding areas,
> with levels of difficulty and distances for all
> cyclists. The Classic public races will wrap up
> with criteriums for amateur USCF licensed riders on March 25.
>
> Classic spectators will have several
> opportunities to view a sea of jerseys flying by
> in the hills of Redlands as well as at the Citrus
> Avenue start/finish line. There will be a
> Festival with live entertainment, food and
> beverages for sale, as well as a beer garden. For
> information on participating in reaching hundreds
> of cyclists through the Festival, visit www.redlandsclassic.com/expo/.
>
> More information, including race times,
> distances, and volunteer opportunities, visit www.redlandsclassic.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as serge at issakov.org
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
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From bikes.alot at cox.net  Sat Feb 10 18:17:33 2007
From: bikes.alot at cox.net (Bicyclist)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:17:33 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: SignOnSanDiego.com News North County -- Woman sets
 sights on cycle champion
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210151551.033c7a90@cox.net>


By Cheryl Walker
TODAY'S LOCAL NEWS

February 9, 2007

VALLEY CENTER ? At 59, there's no slowing down 
for Linda Miller. The Valley Center resident 
keeps going faster, breaking records as she goes.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20070209-9999-lz1mc9cycle.html 
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From gmikeg at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 01:07:20 2007
From: gmikeg at gmail.com (Michael Guerrero)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:07:20 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
Message-ID: <328c49b0702102207jcf63d8bpdc344c536e7e2e1e@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?

thanks

mike
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From gcooke at san.rr.com  Sun Feb 11 01:29:27 2007
From: gcooke at san.rr.com (George Cooke)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:29:27 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <328c49b0702102207jcf63d8bpdc344c536e7e2e1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c74da5$fc208240$0200a8c0@Dell4550>

I don't know if it's "allowed", but I've ridden my bike through there (on
the weekend).

The road is done, but the developer is delaying the opening to coincide with
the opening of the other new road connection at Bernardo Center Drive to
Carmel Valley Road (most recently announced for April).

There are Del Sur model homes next to the barricade at Camino del Norte and
Camino del Sur.  You can come to the model homes from either direction, but
the security guard makes you exit the same way you came in.

 

There's some information on my website, if you visit http://GeorgeCooke.com
<http://georgecooke.com/>  and click on "Hot Topics: New Road Connections".

 

George W Cooke

gcooke at san.rr.com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Guerrero
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:07 PM
To: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade

 

Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?

thanks

mike

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From tlettington at san.rr.com  Sun Feb 11 02:00:10 2007
From: tlettington at san.rr.com (Tom Lettington)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:00:10 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <328c49b0702102207jcf63d8bpdc344c536e7e2e1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <328c49b0702102207jcf63d8bpdc344c536e7e2e1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200702110659.l1B6xsgA012957@ms-smtp-01.socal.rr.com>

The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there 
many times.  I think a group ride could be a different deal, but 
individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.



At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
>Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
>
>thanks
>
>mike
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as tlettington at san.rr.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org



From declan at declan.net  Sun Feb 11 03:06:13 2007
From: declan at declan.net (Declan Fleming)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:06:13 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <200702110659.l1B6xsgA012957@ms-smtp-01.socal.rr.com>
References: <328c49b0702102207jcf63d8bpdc344c536e7e2e1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<200702110659.l1B6xsgA012957@ms-smtp-01.socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <31b0064e0702110006h56700fa7ia8e1dc44e12706ab@mail.gmail.com>

Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up and
asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically allowed.

He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but I think
his geography was off...  I ended up on a long trek through the Lusardi
Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars.  :)

D

On 2/10/07, Tom Lettington <tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
> many times.  I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
> individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.
>
>
>
> At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
> >Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >mike
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as tlettington at san.rr.com
> >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> >http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> >List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> >e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
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From gcooke at san.rr.com  Sun Feb 11 11:14:12 2007
From: gcooke at san.rr.com (George Cooke)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:14:12 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <31b0064e0702110006h56700fa7ia8e1dc44e12706ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c74df7$af5bfa50$0200a8c0@Dell4550>

Coming from Rancho Bernardo, as Camino del Norte approaches Camino del Sur,
there is a new road that turns off to the right that goes to Crosby Estates.
If you can pass through Crosby Estates, it comes out on the Del Dios Highway
at the other end, BUT, Crosby Estates is a gated community, and I don't
think you can go through unless you live there.

 

George W Cooke

gcooke at san.rr.com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org]
On Behalf Of Declan Fleming
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:06 AM
To: Tom Lettington
Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade

 

Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up and
asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically allowed.

He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but I think
his geography was off...  I ended up on a long trek through the Lusardi
Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars.  :) 

D

On 2/10/07, Tom Lettington <tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:

The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
many times.  I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.



At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
>Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
>
>thanks
>
>mike
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as tlettington at san.rr.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> <http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc>
http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at
http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org


_______________________________________________

You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc 
List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
postmaster at stickman-computing.org

 

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From serge at issakov.org  Sun Feb 11 11:37:21 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:37:21 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
References: <20070209070844.MWQP1912.centrmmtao04.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0702110837x2d560e14nf4bbb1e98ba706e8@mail.gmail.com>

At least they acknowledged the concept of cyclists acting like vehicle
drivers, though they misrepresented what it is ("bikes acting like cars"),
did not give a hint about how well it works, and basically quickly dismissed
it ("just won't work in L.A" - no mention of why) and moved on to the tired
old "solution": separation of cyclists from motor traffic through the use
of  "facilities".

The clip of the KFI road cyclist Michael Clarke at 0:55 being closely passed
in a narrow lane looked like it was a typical southern CA arterial, the type
on which Dan Gutierrez and Brian DeSousa have filmed and shown dramatically
the effect of riding as far right as Clarke is shown to be riding versus
riding just a couple of feet further left.  In the former case  -- using the
Clarke "separation style", if you will --  most drivers are invited to pass
by squeezing into the narrow lane with the cyclist, just like it was shown
on this news report.  In the latter case, by riding in a lane-controlling
position, everyone changes lanes to pass, and the cyclist has plenty of
room.

In addition to his riding style, Clarke reveals why he has the issues that
he has through his own words of deference, "there is no sense of sharing, it
is a battle for space.  I have to battle for my five inches out there".
Battle?  Five inches?  Can anyone say, "self-fulfilling prophecy"?  At the
end of the piece, at 3:22, Clarke discloses more about his sense of
inferiority: "Right now the cars rule.  It's their road.  And it's my job to
go in there and figure a way in and out of them".

What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more importantly, to
stop thinking like this?

Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?

Serge



On 2/8/07, Darryl MacKenzie <DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
> and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
>
> story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
> hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better
> with
> the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
> Troy
>
>
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2047 (20070208) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as serge at issakov.org
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
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From declan at declan.net  Sun Feb 11 12:07:42 2007
From: declan at declan.net (Declan Fleming)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:07:42 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <000b01c74df7$af5bfa50$0200a8c0@Dell4550>
References: <31b0064e0702110006h56700fa7ia8e1dc44e12706ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<000b01c74df7$af5bfa50$0200a8c0@Dell4550>
Message-ID: <31b0064e0702110907o52852537r59a2d4641649c889@mail.gmail.com>

Hi - yep, found that out the hard way one day :)

The Bing Crosby guard will not let you through.  I wish Google Maps would
mark gated communities differently.

I want to go explore down there again.  From Google Satellite maps, it looks
like Artesian should connect to Zumaque:

http://local.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=San+Diego,+CA&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=33.012132,-117.175675&spn=0.002897,0.007381&t=h&om=1

through a path in the trees, but I think there was some scary signage down
there that put me off.  There are some beautiful homes out there, WITH space
around them!  I thought I'd gotten lost and ridden to the MidWest  :)

D

On 2/11/07, George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  Coming from Rancho Bernardo, as Camino del Norte approaches Camino del
> Sur, there is a new road that turns off to the right that goes to Crosby
> Estates.  If you can pass through Crosby Estates, it comes out on the Del
> Dios Highway at the other end, BUT, Crosby Estates is a gated community,
> and I don't think you can go through unless you live there.
>
>
>
> George W Cooke
>
> gcooke at san.rr.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:
> sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org] *On Behalf Of *Declan Fleming
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:06 AM
> *To:* Tom Lettington
> *Cc:* sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> *Subject:* Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
>
>
>
> Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up and
> asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically allowed.
>
> He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but I
> think his geography was off...  I ended up on a long trek through the
> Lusardi Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars.  :)
>
> D
>
> On 2/10/07, *Tom Lettington* <tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
> many times.  I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
> individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.
>
>
>
> At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
> >Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >mike
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as tlettington at san.rr.com
> >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> > http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> >List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> >e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to
> postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>
>
>
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From dwhite7 at san.rr.com  Sun Feb 11 12:46:31 2007
From: dwhite7 at san.rr.com (Dave White)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:46:31 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd:  Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
Message-ID: <0d7a017bae2e9949d6623bc22903a5b0@san.rr.com>

Artesian connects to Zumaque for bikes (cars have to deal with a gate  
with combination pad entry).  From the guard on Camino del sur/norte,  
take the other fork until reaching the auto gate at the bottom of  
Zumaque.  A steep climb takes you up to stud loop in RSF.  The signage  
seems to apply to the property rather than the road.  We have been  
through several times in both directions, including with groups, and  
the residents seem to be bike friendly - at least for now.  Let's try  
and keep it that way.
Dave White

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Declan Fleming <declan at declan.net>
> Date: February 11, 2007 9:07:42 AM PST
> To: George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com>
> Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
>
> Hi - yep, found that out the hard way one day :)
>
> The Bing Crosby guard will not let you through.? I wish Google Maps  
> would mark gated communities differently.
>
> I want to go explore down there again.? From Google Satellite maps, it  
> looks like Artesian should connect to Zumaque:
>
> http://local.google.com/maps? 
> f=q&hl=en&q=San+Diego,+CA&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=33.012132, 
> -117.175675&spn=0.002897,0.007381&t=h&om=1
>
> through a path in the trees, but I think there was some scary signage  
> down there that put me off.? There are some beautiful homes out there,  
> WITH space around them!? I thought I'd gotten lost and ridden to the  
> MidWest? :)
>
> D
>
> On 2/11/07, George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com> wrote:Coming from Rancho  
> Bernardo, as Camino del Norte approaches Camino del Sur, there is a  
> new road that turns off to the right that goes to Crosby Estates.? If  
> you can pass through Crosby Estates, it comes out on the Del Dios  
> Highway at the other end, BUT, Crosby Estates is a gated community,  
> and I don't think you can go through unless you live there.
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> George W Cooke
>>
>> gcooke at san.rr.com
>>
>> ?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:  
>> sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org] On Behalf Of Declan Fleming
>> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:06 AM
>> To: Tom Lettington
>> Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
>> Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up  
>> and asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically  
>> allowed.
>>
>>  He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but  
>> I think his geography was off...? I ended up on a long trek through  
>> the Lusardi Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars.? :)
>>
>>  D
>>
>> On 2/10/07, Tom Lettington < tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
>>  many times.??I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
>>  individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>  At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
>>  >Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
>>  >
>>  >thanks
>>  >
>>  >mike
>>  >_______________________________________________
>>  >
>>  >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as  
>> tlettington at san.rr.com
>>  >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
>>  > http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>>  >List privacy information is located at  
>> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>>  >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
>>  >e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>
>>  You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
>>  To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to  
>> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>>  List privacy information is located at  
>> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>>  For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send  
>> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
>>
>> ?
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as dwhite7 at san.rr.com
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to  
> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at  
> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send  
> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
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From Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net  Sun Feb 11 13:02:32 2007
From: Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net (Dan Gutierrez)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:02:32 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0702110837x2d560e14nf4bbb1e98ba706e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c74e06$cd890db0$0200a8c0@Tiberius>

Serge,
You asked: "What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more
importantly, to stop thinking like this?"
 .
The concept is easy, just make them aware of their road rights and
responsibilities; this you do with education not stripes.  The
implementation OTOH is difficult, since it takes time for people's emotions
to catch up.  Even if you learn and "know" in the intellectual sense that
you as a cyclist have the right to control lanes for your own safety, it
takes time before you "feel" comfortable doing this.  We have found that
video showing the on-bike cyclist perspective helps most people overcome
their aversion to controlling lanes and accelerates the process of getting
them to act like drivers and feel comfortable doing it.
 .
Serge also asked: "Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that
clip?"
 .
Just go to our main website www.DualChase.com and click on the video sample
link to the CyclistView website near the bottom of the home page.  This will
play the clips on two slides from our Integrated Traffic Cycling(TM)
introduction.  The first slide shows lane control on a 4 lane road as part
of a description of the skills needed by cyclists to act as vehicle drivers,
the second is the side by side comparison Serge wants you to see, which
demonstrates very nicely that all other variables (cyclist, bike,
speed-15mph, trafic conditions, lane widths, etc.) being equal, the way
motorists pass cyclists is determined by the cyclists' lane position.  Too
far right, and the cyclist will be pased uncomfortably closely within the
same lane, far enough left and the motorists make lane changes.  These two
clips wer taken less than two minutes apart during afternoon commute
traffic.  This effect is quite striking, and in practice very nice for those
cyclists that learn to control lanes.
 .
I should also note that on Friday afternoon, I showed Monica Howe, the
oureach coordinator of the LA County Bicycle Coalition, our inclusive
advocacy briefing, and explained our right to use road space (much centering
on the flowdown from CVC21200 to 21650 to 21654, and the further
restrictions of 21202) some of which she wasn't aware (didn't know about
CVC21202 exception (a)(4) for example).  Since Monica has become the media
darling for the LA times and TV news (she was in the Road Wars! piece), and
is interested in imporving her traffic skills, Brian and I will be training
her and some other LACBC members in the near future.  My goal in this work
is to make the advocates more aware of their rights and be better
spokespeople for integrated cycling and the rest of the cycling behavior
spectrum.
 .
 .
- Dan Gutierrez -

Long Beach, CA

(562) 244-4145 Cell

(310) 336-3075 Office

(800) 616-4714 Pager

Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net



Organizational Affiliations

Local:

Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair

Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President

South Bay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member



State:

CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director

CABO Education Committee Co-Chair

Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee Member



National:

League of American Bicyclists (LAB), Certified Instructor, LCI #962

LAB Education Committee Member

Dual Chase Productions LLC, Co-Creator  www.DualChase.com



-----Original Message-----
From: serge.issakov at gmail.com [mailto:serge.issakov at gmail.com]On Behalf Of
Serge Issakov
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:37 AM
To: DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net
Cc: San Diego County Bicycle Coalition; Dan Gutierrez; Brian DeSousa
Subject: Re: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.



At least they acknowledged the concept of cyclists acting like vehicle
drivers, though they misrepresented what it is ("bikes acting like cars"),
did not give a hint about how well it works, and basically quickly dismissed
it ("just won't work in L.A" - no mention of why) and moved on to the tired
old "solution": separation of cyclists from motor traffic through the use of
"facilities".

The clip of the KFI road cyclist Michael Clarke at 0:55 being closely passed
in a narrow lane looked like it was a typical southern CA arterial, the type
on which Dan Gutierrez and Brian DeSousa have filmed and shown dramatically
the effect of riding as far right as Clarke is shown to be riding versus
riding just a couple of feet further left.  In the former case  -- using the
Clarke "separation style", if you will --  most drivers are invited to pass
by squeezing into the narrow lane with the cyclist, just like it was shown
on this news report.  In the latter case, by riding in a lane-controlling
position, everyone changes lanes to pass, and the cyclist has plenty of
room.

In addition to his riding style, Clarke reveals why he has the issues that
he has through his own words of deference, "there is no sense of sharing, it
is a battle for space.  I have to battle for my five inches out there".
Battle?  Five inches?  Can anyone say, "self-fulfilling prophecy"?  At the
end of the piece, at 3:22, Clarke discloses more about his sense of
inferiority: "Right now the cars rule.  It's their road.  And it's my job to
go in there and figure a way in and out of them".

What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more importantly, to
stop thinking like this?

Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?

Serge




On 2/8/07, Darryl MacKenzie <DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net> wrote:
  Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.

  Hi All,

  I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
  and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
  story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
  hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better
with
  the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
  Troy




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From wblomgren at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 17:00:57 2007
From: wblomgren at gmail.com (Wade Blomgren)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:00:57 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <0d7a017bae2e9949d6623bc22903a5b0@san.rr.com>
References: <0d7a017bae2e9949d6623bc22903a5b0@san.rr.com>
Message-ID: <c587da240702111400o7663f99bu31c907b126db374e@mail.gmail.com>

A small heads up regarding the Artesian/Zumaque connection - we've
ridden through there a number of times as well with no problems, just
note that there are some speed bumps (3-4) between the base of the
Artesian hill and the gate.  Depending on the lighting and which way
you are riding, they can be very hard to see - there's really nothing
to distinguish them from the rest of the road surface.  Apparently
there have been a couple of spectacular yard sale crashes, especially
in the direction coming down Artesian....be careful.

Wade

On 2/11/07, Dave White <dwhite7 at san.rr.com> wrote:
> Artesian connects to Zumaque for bikes (cars have to deal with a gate
> with combination pad entry).  From the guard on Camino del sur/norte,
> take the other fork until reaching the auto gate at the bottom of
> Zumaque.  A steep climb takes you up to stud loop in RSF.  The signage
> seems to apply to the property rather than the road.  We have been
> through several times in both directions, including with groups, and
> the residents seem to be bike friendly - at least for now.  Let's try
> and keep it that way.
> Dave White
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> > From: Declan Fleming <declan at declan.net>
> > Date: February 11, 2007 9:07:42 AM PST
> > To: George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com>
> > Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> > Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
> >
> > Hi - yep, found that out the hard way one day :)
> >
> > The Bing Crosby guard will not let you through. I wish Google Maps
> > would mark gated communities differently.
> >
> > I want to go explore down there again. From Google Satellite maps, it
> > looks like Artesian should connect to Zumaque:
> >
> > http://local.google.com/maps?
> > f=q&hl=en&q=San+Diego,+CA&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=33.012132,
> > -117.175675&spn=0.002897,0.007381&t=h&om=1
> >
> > through a path in the trees, but I think there was some scary signage
> > down there that put me off. There are some beautiful homes out there,
> > WITH space around them! I thought I'd gotten lost and ridden to the
> > MidWest :)
> >
> > D
> >
> > On 2/11/07, George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com> wrote:Coming from Rancho
> > Bernardo, as Camino del Norte approaches Camino del Sur, there is a
> > new road that turns off to the right that goes to Crosby Estates. If
> > you can pass through Crosby Estates, it comes out on the Del Dios
> > Highway at the other end, BUT, Crosby Estates is a gated community,
> > and I don't think you can go through unless you live there.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> George W Cooke
> >>
> >> gcooke at san.rr.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:
> >> sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org] On Behalf Of Declan Fleming
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:06 AM
> >> To: Tom Lettington
> >> Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> >> Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up
> >> and asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically
> >> allowed.
> >>
> >>  He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but
> >> I think his geography was off... I ended up on a long trek through
> >> the Lusardi Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars. :)
> >>
> >>  D
> >>
> >> On 2/10/07, Tom Lettington < tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
> >>  many times.I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
> >>  individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
> >>  >Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
> >>  >
> >>  >thanks
> >>  >
> >>  >mike
> >>  >_______________________________________________
> >>  >
> >>  >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as
> >> tlettington at san.rr.com
> >>  >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> >>  > http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> >>  >List privacy information is located at
> >> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> >>  >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> >>  >e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> >>
> >>
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>  You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
> >>  To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> >> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
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> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as dwhite7 at san.rr.com
> > To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
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> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as wblomgren at gmail.com
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> List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
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>

From gcarman at san.rr.com  Sun Feb 11 20:57:27 2007
From: gcarman at san.rr.com (Gene Carman)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:57:27 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Re:  FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
Message-ID: <200702120202.l1C22uWi013475@ms-smtp-04.socal.rr.com>

Here Dan points to the fundamental problem of lack of 
education...  of users of the roadway.  As long as all the users of 
the roadway are not familiar with each others rights and the rules 
involved...  then the problem will continue to exist.

You and Dan and even John Forester will continue to insist that 
cyclists must be trained in some separate manner from motorists and 
that motorists don't need any further training... but since there is 
very little infrastructure to reach cyclists, more new cyclists will 
hit the road than can ever be trained in a life time, by the current 
methods.

The ideal way to reach all users of the road is to simply incorporate 
training in an already well established "path" of training... either 
into the current school system where "use of the roads" should be a 
subject as important as health classes and PE, or in a longer form of 
drivers ed that goes beyond the basics and teaches the ethics and 
responsibilities of all the road users.

Until then, only a few cyclists will ever gain the knowledge of which 
Dan speaks.  Apparently even Monica Howe, the outeach coordinator of 
the LA County Bicycle Coalition, who should be well familiar with 
this information...  was not.  How then do we expect college 
freshmen, just cycling to class, to ever gain this knowledge?


>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:02:32 -0800
>From: Dan Gutierrez <Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net>
>Subject: Re: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
>Sender: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org
>To: Serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>, DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net
>Cc: San Diego County Bicycle Coalition <sdcbc at bikesandiego.org>,
>  Brian DeSousa <bpd at briandesousa.com>
>Reply-to: Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net
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>         <sdcbc.bikesandiego.org>
>Original-recipient: rfc822;gcarman at san.rr.com
>
>Serge,
>You asked: "What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more 
>importantly, to stop thinking like this?"
>  .
>The concept is easy, just make them aware of their road rights and 
>responsibilities; this you do with education not stripes.  The 
>implementation OTOH is difficult, since it takes time for people's 
>emotions to catch up.  Even if you learn and "know" in the 
>intellectual sense that you as a cyclist have the right to control 
>lanes for your own safety, it takes time before you "feel" 
>comfortable doing this.  We have found that video showing the 
>on-bike cyclist perspective helps most people overcome their 
>aversion to controlling lanes and accelerates the process of getting 
>them to act like drivers and feel comfortable doing it.
>  .
>Serge also asked: "Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?"
>  .
>Just go to our main website 
><http://www.DualChase.com>www.DualChase.com and click on the video 
>sample link to the CyclistView website near the bottom of the home 
>page.  This will play the clips on two slides from our Integrated 
>Traffic Cycling(TM) introduction.  The first slide shows lane 
>control on a 4 lane road as part of a description of the skills 
>needed by cyclists to act as vehicle drivers, the second is the side 
>by side comparison Serge wants you to see, which demonstrates very 
>nicely that all other variables (cyclist, bike, speed-15mph, trafic 
>conditions, lane widths, etc.) being equal, the way motorists pass 
>cyclists is determined by the cyclists' lane position.  Too far 
>right, and the cyclist will be pased uncomfortably closely within 
>the same lane, far enough left and the motorists make lane 
>changes.  These two clips wer taken less than two minutes apart 
>during afternoon commute traffic.  This effect is quite striking, 
>and in practice very nice for those cyclists that learn to control lanes.
>  .
>I should also note that on Friday afternoon, I showed Monica Howe, 
>the oureach coordinator of the LA County Bicycle Coalition, our 
>inclusive advocacy briefing, and explained our right to use road 
>space (much centering on the flowdown from CVC21200 to 21650 to 
>21654, and the further restrictions of 21202) some of which she 
>wasn't aware (didn't know about CVC21202 exception (a)(4) for 
>example).  Since Monica has become the media darling for the LA 
>times and TV news (she was in the Road Wars! piece), and is 
>interested in imporving her traffic skills, Brian and I will be 
>training her and some other LACBC members in the near future.  My 
>goal in this work is to make the advocates more aware of their 
>rights and be better spokespeople for integrated cycling and the 
>rest of the cycling behavior spectrum.
>  .
>  .
>
>- Dan Gutierrez -<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = 
>"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
>Long Beach, CA
>
>(562) 244-4145 Cell
>
>(310) 336-3075 Office
>
>(800) 616-4714 Pager
>
>Dan.Gutierrez at Charter.Net
>
>
>
>Organizational Affiliations
>
>Local:
>
>Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair
>
>Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President
>
>South Bay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
>
>
>
>State:
>
>CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director
>
>CABO Education Committee Co-Chair
>
>Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee Member
>
>
>
>National:
>
>League of American Bicyclists (LAB), Certified Instructor, LCI #962
>
>LAB Education Committee Member
>
>Dual Chase Productions LLC, 
>Co-Creator  <http://www.dualchase.com/>www.DualChase.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: serge.issakov at gmail.com [mailto:serge.issakov at gmail.com]On 
>Behalf Of Serge Issakov
>Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:37 AM
>To: DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net
>Cc: San Diego County Bicycle Coalition; Dan Gutierrez; Brian DeSousa
>Subject: Re: [SDCBC] FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
>
>
>At least they acknowledged the concept of cyclists acting like 
>vehicle drivers, though they misrepresented what it is ("bikes 
>acting like cars"), did not give a hint about how well it works, and 
>basically quickly dismissed it ("just won't work in L.A" - no 
>mention of why) and moved on to the tired old "solution": separation 
>of cyclists from motor traffic through the use of  "facilities".
>
>The clip of the KFI road cyclist Michael Clarke at 0:55 being 
>closely passed in a narrow lane looked like it was a typical 
>southern CA arterial, the type on which Dan Gutierrez and Brian 
>DeSousa have filmed and shown dramatically the effect of riding as 
>far right as Clarke is shown to be riding versus riding just a 
>couple of feet further left.  In the former case  -- using the 
>Clarke "separation style", if you will --  most drivers are invited 
>to pass by squeezing into the narrow lane with the cyclist, just 
>like it was shown on this news report.  In the latter case, by 
>riding in a lane-controlling position, everyone changes lanes to 
>pass, and the cyclist has plenty of room.
>
>In addition to his riding style, Clarke reveals why he has the 
>issues that he has through his own words of deference, "there is no 
>sense of sharing, it is a battle for space.  I have to battle for my 
>five inches out there".  Battle?  Five inches?  Can anyone say, 
>"self-fulfilling prophecy"?  At the end of the piece, at 3:22, 
>Clarke discloses more about his sense of inferiority: "Right now the 
>cars rule.  It's their road.  And it's my job to go in there and 
>figure a way in and out of them".
>
>What can we do to get cyclists to stop talking and, more 
>importantly, to stop thinking like this?
>
>Dan/Brian - any chance you can share a link to that clip?
>
>Serge
>
>
>
>On 2/8/07, Darryl MacKenzie 
><<mailto:DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net>DarrylMacKenzie at cox.net> wrote:
>Interesting story from a former Cyclo-Vet.
>
>Hi All,
>
>I just saw a news story on NBC, Channel 4, LA.  It was called "Road Wars"
>and was a news exclusive about bikes vs. cars. I taped it and then had the
>story uploaded to YouTube. The news previews made it look like a hard
>hitting and scary piece for cyclists. They could have done a lot better with
>the story. Check it out and see for yourself.
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
>Troy
>
>
>
>
>__________ NOD32 2047 (20070208) Information __________
>
>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
><http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as 
><mailto:serge at issakov.org>serge at issakov.org
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From j.eldon at sbcglobal.net  Sun Feb 11 21:36:34 2007
From: j.eldon at sbcglobal.net (John Eldon)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:36:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
Message-ID: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Gene. Spot-on. I read every day, and occasionally encounter, motorists who desperately need education on bicyclists' rights, not to mention on their own moral obligation to drive attentively and responsibly.

John E.


----- Original Message ----
From: Gene Carman <gcarman at san.rr.com>
To: serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>; sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:57:27 PM
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Re: FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.

Here Dan points to the fundamental problem of lack of education...  of users of the roadway.  As long as all the users of the roadway are not familiar with each others rights and the rules involved...  then the problem will continue to exist.  

You and Dan and even John Forester will continue to insist that cyclists must be trained in some separate manner from motorists and that motorists don't need any further training... but since there is very little infrastructure to reach cyclists, more new cyclists will hit the road than can ever be trained in a life time, by the current methods.    

The ideal way to reach all users of the road is to simply incorporate training in an already well established "path" of training... either into the current school system where "use of the roads" should be a subject as important as health classes and PE, or in a longer form of drivers ed that goes beyond the basics and teaches the ethics and responsibilities of all the road users.  

Until then, only a few cyclists will ever gain the knowledge of which Dan speaks.  Apparently even Monica Howe, the outeach coordinator of the LA County Bicycle Coalition, who should be well familiar with this information...  was not.  How then do we expect college freshmen, just cycling to class, to ever gain this knowledge?
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From serge at issakov.org  Mon Feb 12 02:12:28 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:12:28 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0702112312ya544e2bw63d41e1ebaab8772@mail.gmail.com>

I agree, John, but only to an extent.

That is, better education of all motorists is an excellent idea, but I think
the alleged "need" for it tends to be way overblown, particularly with
respect to making cycling in traffic "safe".  I have a particular distaste
for the implication that riding in traffic is not safe, and will not be
safe, until motorists are better educated, or cyclists are physically
separated.  That implication makes cycling seem much more dangerous than it
actually is, and is hardly a boon to making cycling be more popular.

But as far as Gene's point about reaching all road users regarding the
spreading of the knowledge that Dan wrote about, yes, training through
existing channels is probably a good idea.  But I don't know how we get that
to happen.  In the mean time, I would like to at least see the information
spread within the cycling community through the existing channels that we
have, like this one.

While even the advocacy leaders like Monica Howe don't know approaching a
place where a right turn is authorized obviates our legal requirement to
keep right, or understand why, and the "hardcore" 34 miles/day commuters
like Michael Clarke choose lane position based on the premise that the cars
own the road and his job is "to go in there and figure a way in and out of
them", then I think we still have a lot of house cleaning to do within the
cycling community, before we can do much consistently and effectively about
the lack of knowledge and understanding by non-cyclists...

Serge



On 2/11/07, John Eldon <j.eldon at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Thank you, Gene. Spot-on. I read every day, and occasionally encounter,
> motorists who desperately need education on bicyclists' rights, not to
> mention on their own moral obligation to drive attentively and responsibly.
>
> John E.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gene Carman < gcarman at san.rr.com>
> To: serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>; sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:57:27 PM
> Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Re: FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
>
> Here Dan points to the fundamental problem of lack of education...  of
> users of the roadway.  As long as all the users of the roadway are not
> familiar with each others rights and the rules involved...  then the problem
> will continue to exist.
>
> You and Dan and even John Forester will continue to insist that cyclists
> must be trained in some separate manner from motorists and that motorists
> don't need any further training... but since there is very little
> infrastructure to reach cyclists, more new cyclists will hit the road than
> can ever be trained in a life time, by the current methods.
>
> The ideal way to reach *all users of the road* is to simply incorporate
> training in an already well established "path" of training... either into
> the current school system where "use of the roads" should be a subject as
> important as health classes and PE, or in a longer form of drivers ed that
> goes beyond the basics and teaches the ethics and responsibilities of all
> the road users.
>
> Until then, only a few cyclists will ever gain the knowledge of which Dan
> speaks.  Apparently even Monica Howe, the outeach coordinator of the LA
> County Bicycle Coalition, who should be well familiar with this
> information...  was not.  How then do we expect college freshmen, just
> cycling to class, to ever gain this knowledge?
>
>
>
>
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From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 12 07:05:20 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:05:20 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Has the SDCBC ever done outrieach at college transportation
	offices?
In-Reply-To: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45D05800.2070508@earthlink.net>

Dear All:
	Hi! Has the SDCBC ever done outreach throught either college bike shops 
or college transportation and parking offices? Not that college 
freshpeople ever learn anything from classes....

Robert Leone

John Eldon wrote:
> Thank you, Gene. Spot-on. I read every day, and occasionally encounter, 
> motorists who desperately need education on bicyclists' rights, not to 
> mention on their own moral obligation to drive attentively and responsibly.
>  
> John E.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Gene Carman <gcarman at san.rr.com>
> To: serge Issakov <serge at issakov.org>; sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:57:27 PM
> Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Re: FW: Bikes vs Cars. An NBC news story in L.A.
> 
> Here Dan points to the fundamental problem of lack of education...  of 
> users of the roadway.  As long as all the users of the roadway are not 
> familiar with each others rights and the rules involved...  then the 
> problem will continue to exist. 
> 
> You and Dan and even John Forester will continue to insist that cyclists 
> must be trained in some separate manner from motorists and that 
> motorists don't need any further training... but since there is very 
> little infrastructure to reach cyclists, more new cyclists will hit the 
> road than can ever be trained in a life time, by the current methods.   
> 
> The ideal way to reach *all users of the road* is to simply incorporate 
> training in an already well established "path" of training... either 
> into the current school system where "use of the roads" should be a 
> subject as important as health classes and PE, or in a longer form of 
> drivers ed that goes beyond the basics and teaches the ethics and 
> responsibilities of all the road users. 
> 
> Until then, only a few cyclists will ever gain the knowledge of which 
> Dan speaks.  Apparently even Monica Howe, the outeach coordinator of the 
> LA County Bicycle Coalition, who should be well familiar with this 
> information...  was not.  How then do we expect college freshmen, just 
> cycling to class, to ever gain this knowledge?
> 
>>  
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as rob_leone at earthlink.net
> To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org



From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Mon Feb 12 07:25:30 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:25:30 EST
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
Message-ID: <bdc.b6dadd7.3301b6ba@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/07 11:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
serge at issakov.org writes:

> That is, better education of all motorists is an excellent idea, but I 
> think the alleged "need" for it tends to be way overblown, particularly with 
> respect to making cycling in traffic "safe".  I have a particular distaste for 
> the implication that riding in traffic is not safe, and will not be safe, until 
> motorists are better educated, or cyclists are physically separated.  That 
> implication makes cycling seem much more dangerous than it actually is, and is 
> hardly a boon to making cycling be more popular. 
> 
> But as far as Gene's point about reaching all road users regarding the 
> spreading of the knowledge that Dan wrote about, yes, training through existing 
> channels is probably a good idea.  But I don't know how we get that to happen.  
> In the mean time, I would like to at least see the information spread within 
> the cycling community through the existing channels that we have, like this 
> one. 
> 
> 
------

Serge:

Well said.

I would like to see better education/training for all vehicle operators, not 
so much because I am a cyclist but rather because I am also a motorist...

But given that we can connect with people who ride bicycles and that it is 
clear from observing people riding biycles that many lack basic road skills, 
efforts at educating cyclist seems to offer the most return on any effort.

jon
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From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Mon Feb 12 08:00:47 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:00:47 EST
Subject: [SDCBC] Has the SDCBC ever done outrieach at college
	transportation offic...
Message-ID: <ce3.95bbba9.3301beff@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/12/07 4:05:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
rob_leone at earthlink.net writes:

> Dear All:
>   Hi! Has the SDCBC ever done outreach throught either college bike shops 
> or college transportation and parking offices? Not that college 
> freshpeople ever learn anything from classes....
> 
> Robert Leone
-----
Hi Robert et. al.

There is an effort at UCSD through the Pedal Club to provide training and 
access to RIde for Life Classes.  So far it is still in the planning stages but 
it is going to happen.  This is primarily the result of efforts by Brain Parent 
at the monthly Pedal Club meetings.  These meetings consist of just a few 
people, myself, Brian, the two campus bicycle officers, a person from campus 
planning and the cycling advocate from the campus RideShare office.

It has been interesting to watch Brian at work.  When the Pedal club was 
revived last year after several years of inactivity, there was refusal by the 
campus community to accept that efforts towards education and training were worth 
persuing.   More bike paths, more bike lanes, keep bikes separate was the 
push.  Kathy some of the first meetings, I am sure she remembers...

But slowly there has been a shift and now everyone seems in full agreement 
the importance of training and classes.  Brian has carefully taken every 
opportunity to educate this group so that now they see the importance and usefulness 
of education.

At the last meeting, adding bike lanes to Gilman was discussed and Brian 
pointed out that Sharrows would be more effective and that Bike Lanes were 
actually a poor choice for the area because the speed limit is 25mph and there 
several right turns that would invite right hooking.  The point person for the Bike 
Lanes was glad to hear Brian because the bike lanes would require removal of 
trees and about $650,000.   The tree is was the biggie.. 

Another advance is that in order to be a member of the Pedal Club and get 
your 10days a quarter Free Parking Pass, you will have to pass a simple test.  
This test will hopefully actually teach the basic concepts of safe cycling.  
This test serves two purposes, it helps eliminate non-cyclists from securing a 
Free Parking Pass and it provides some education.  There now monthly Pedal CLub 
breakfasts on Campus where cyclists can eat some free food, stand around and 
talk, and learn a bit about RIde for Life and the training available.  As 
always, I see Brian there.

And too, the two officers are now spending a good deal of time stopping 
cyclists who run stops signs or speed in pedestian areas and warning them, maybe 
even ticketing them.  

Bottom line:  Brian has been subtle but effective in shifting this group's 
attitude so that they see the many advantages that education offers.  I think he 
has done by showing that as a tool to resolve individual issues, education is 
the most effective and most economical.

It is happening at UCSD and it is going to HAPPEN in a much bigger way quite 
soon.

Best to all, have a good ride this morning

Jon 
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From gcarman at san.rr.com  Mon Feb 12 08:57:39 2007
From: gcarman at san.rr.com (Gene Carman)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:57:39 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <bdc.b6dadd7.3301b6ba@aol.com>
References: <bdc.b6dadd7.3301b6ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200702121403.l1CE37l5018840@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>

"...given that we can connect with people who ride bicycles... "

I don't see this as a "given."

How exactly do you propose to efficiently reach "people who ride 
bicycles..."  through what special means are cyclists alone able to 
be contacted, to be made aware of their need for education?

The current situation is that most cyclists are not even aware that 
they have a need for education, and thus do not even seek any form of 
cycling education...  nor do bike shops (which many cyclists may not 
even visit) have any awareness nor provide any education connection.

Since the majority of cyclists also are drivers of motor vehicles, it 
seems quite simple to me that a network already exists to reach most 
bicycle riders...  through driver's ed...  or through the state 
drivers license system.

An even better way to reach all users of the road would be through 
public schools where nearly every citizen (less those home schooled) 
would pass.

We must raise the "education of road users" to at least a similar 
level to that of "health" education.


At 04:25 AM 2/12/2007, JonIsaacs at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/11/07 11:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
>serge at issakov.org writes:
>
>>That is, better education of all motorists is an excellent idea, 
>>but I think the alleged "need" for it tends to be way overblown, 
>>particularly with respect to making cycling in traffic "safe".  I 
>>have a particular distaste for the implication that riding in 
>>traffic is not safe, and will not be safe, until motorists are 
>>better educated, or cyclists are physically separated.  That 
>>implication makes cycling seem much more dangerous than it actually 
>>is, and is hardly a boon to making cycling be more popular.
>>
>>But as far as Gene's point about reaching all road users regarding 
>>the spreading of the knowledge that Dan wrote about, yes, training 
>>through existing channels is probably a good idea.  But I don't 
>>know how we get that to happen.  In the mean time, I would like to 
>>at least see the information spread within the cycling community 
>>through the existing channels that we have, like this one.
>
>------
>
>Serge:
>
>Well said.
>
>I would like to see better education/training for all vehicle 
>operators, not so much because I am a cyclist but rather because I 
>am also a motorist...
>
>But given that we can connect with people who ride bicycles and that 
>it is clear from observing people riding biycles that many lack 
>basic road skills, efforts at educating cyclist seems to offer the 
>most return on any effort.
>
>jon
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as gcarman at san.rr.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
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From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Mon Feb 12 10:04:38 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:04:38 EST
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
Message-ID: <c51.e6d3868.3301dc06@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/12/07 6:06:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
gcarman at san.rr.com writes:

> "...given that we can connect with people who ride bicycles... "
> 
> I don't see this as a "given."
> 
> How exactly do you propose to efficiently reach "people who ride 
> bicycles..."  through what special means are cyclists alone able to be contacted, to be 
> made aware of their need for education?

--------

This is a cycling organization.   We have connections with cyclists and 
cycling groups.  Networking, talking to other cyclists...  

Sure, I am all for starting education about how to operate a vehicle in the 
2nd grade and SDCBC is certainly working on that.   That is a great dream and 
could transform the traffic world in the future.  Teach everyone to ride a bike 
safely in elementry school would be a real positive in the long run.

I think the most effective use of resources is educating cyclists how to ride 
safely as part of the traffic community.   A cyclist who has the skills to 
ride as part of traffic safely is prepared for motorists who are not skilled at 
dealing with cyclists. The reverse is not true.  Even if every motorist were 
aware of the issues of a "right hook" it does not mean a cyclist still has to 
ride with the awareness that it is a possibility. 

Jon
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From gcarman at san.rr.com  Mon Feb 12 10:14:09 2007
From: gcarman at san.rr.com (Gene Carman)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:14:09 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <c51.e6d3868.3301dc06@aol.com>
References: <c51.e6d3868.3301dc06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200702121519.l1CFJbZ8000345@ms-smtp-01.socal.rr.com>

We have no disagreement on the goals...  I just see the current 
system as lacking in outreach.

A second grade education program however would be an ideal first step.

I called for education of motorists not specifically as motorists, 
but simply because a current infrastructure exists for education of 
"road users."

If in fact education at a grade school level can take place (much as 
the bicycle Rodeos I experienced as a youngster) along with further 
education at a later age... such as a high school program or a 
program similar to the UCSD program, then indeed an effective program 
may be the outcome.

It would be quite the accomplishment to have everyone aware of 
CVC21200 to 21650 to 21654, and the further restrictions of 21202, 
not just dedicated cyclists.


At 07:04 AM 2/12/2007, JonIsaacs at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/12/07 6:06:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
>gcarman at san.rr.com writes:
>
>>"...given that we can connect with people who ride bicycles... "
>>
>>I don't see this as a "given."
>>
>>How exactly do you propose to efficiently reach "people who ride 
>>bicycles..."  through what special means are cyclists alone able to 
>>be contacted, to be made aware of their need for education?
>
>
>--------
>
>This is a cycling organization.   We have connections with cyclists 
>and cycling groups.  Networking, talking to other cyclists...
>
>Sure, I am all for starting education about how to operate a vehicle 
>in the 2nd grade and SDCBC is certainly working on that.   That is a 
>great dream and could transform the traffic world in the 
>future.  Teach everyone to ride a bike safely in elementry school 
>would be a real positive in the long run.
>
>I think the most effective use of resources is educating cyclists 
>how to ride safely as part of the traffic community.   A cyclist who 
>has the skills to ride as part of traffic safely is prepared for 
>motorists who are not skilled at dealing with cyclists. The reverse 
>is not true.  Even if every motorist were aware of the issues of a 
>"right hook" it does not mean a cyclist still has to ride with the 
>awareness that it is a possibility.
>
>Jon
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From JonIsaacs at aol.com  Mon Feb 12 10:43:37 2007
From: JonIsaacs at aol.com (JonIsaacs at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:43:37 EST
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
Message-ID: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/12/07 7:20:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
gcarman at san.rr.com writes:

> We have no disagreement on the goals...  I just see the current system as 
> lacking in outreach.  

-----

I just see the current system as lacking in resources...  We all do what we 
can do with the time we have to do it...

Edcuation on a large scale of all road users about basic vehicular skills 
would great but I just don't see it happening.  

My dream is a bit smaller these days..  Teach cyclists to ride in a 
reasonable, law abiding manner and members of the road community will expect cyclists 
to ride in a reasonable, law abiding manner.  

As it is,  I think most motorists, me included, have no expectations of 
reasonable behavior from someone on a bicycle and so treat cyclists as "loose 
cannons" that just might do anything.

jon
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From JimBaross at cox.net  Mon Feb 12 10:04:38 2007
From: JimBaross at cox.net (Jim Baross)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:04:38 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Has the SDCBC ever done outrieach at college
 transportation offices?
In-Reply-To: <45D05800.2070508@earthlink.net>
References: <599053.66401.qm@web52502.mail.yahoo.com>
	<45D05800.2070508@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070212070224.0371d200@cox.net>

Yes.
Do you, Robert, want to help SDCBC do more or better?

(I expect you comment about learning is in jest... )

At 04:05 AM 2/12/2007, Robert Leone wrote:
>Dear All:
>         Hi! Has the SDCBC ever done outreach throught either 
> college bike shops
>or college transportation and parking offices? Not that college
>freshpeople ever learn anything from classes....
>
>Robert Leone




From bikes.alot at cox.net  Mon Feb 12 10:45:08 2007
From: bikes.alot at cox.net (Bicyclist)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:45:08 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] talk is cheap - Re:  all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <200702121403.l1CE37l5018840@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>
References: <bdc.b6dadd7.3301b6ba@aol.com>
	<200702121403.l1CE37l5018840@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070212070740.0371b1b0@cox.net>

I may be being a little grouchy this morning... and though I do 
really appreciate the exchange of ideas (I am still learning too), I 
do hope that those of you who apparently care are or will actually do 
something... something in addition to riding your bikes and posting 
concerns and ideas.

Supporting the efforts of appropriate others with cash memberships 
and additional donations is probably the easiest way to help.
SDCBC membership can be entered or renewed on-line at 
http://www.active.com/event_detail.cfm?event_id=1285437 or send a 
check (or two) to SDCBC, P.O. Box 34544, San Diego, California, 92163.

Other means:

Volunteer to help SDCBC on the local level, CBC on the state level, 
CABO for your club or bicycle friendly organization, LAB on the 
national level. Or maybe you can suggest others? I bet that Kathy 
could offer suggestions.

Learn the craft; the laws and best behaviors. Then model them, being 
an good ambassador.
(As Will Rogers, American Cowboy humorist/philosopher said. "It's not 
what he [bicyclists] don't know that bothers me, it's what he knows 
for sure that just ain't so!")

Tell your friends. Be a ride leader or officer of your club - do not 
let them flaunt traffic law or courtesy... or drop your membership.

Become certified to teach others through the LAB LCI program, then 
teach others. Certification as an LCI is the best way I know to 
authenticate your traffic bicycling skills and improve 
teaching/advocacy skills.... and you might actually learn something.

Use the contacts you have or can develop to advocate for bicycling at 
work, school, church, community meetings, municipal meetings and 
committees, state and local transportation departments and agencies, ....

Become a recognized and/or voting member of the groups above or 
others. Speak up for bicycling and rational behavior in traffic.

Endow/bequeath/donate to appropriate organizations that support your 
views/desires such as (my favorites) SDCBC, CBC, CABO, LAB, Sierra Club, ...

Other ideas?

end of rant.


Jim Baross
San Diego, California
(A volunteer who gets paid for providing some training and instruction.)

Chair, SANDAG Bicycle Pedestrian Working Group
Vice Chair, Calif. Bicycle Advisory Committee
President, Calif. Association of Bicycle Organizations
Board Member, Calif. Bicycle Coalition
Spokesperson, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
League Trainer & Effective Cycling Instructor #185 K-C
Chair SHSIP, Challenge Area 13 "Bicycling Safety"

"Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on our public 
roads, just as does every other user.
Nothing more is expected. Nothing less is acceptable."
        Jack R. Taylor

"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles."
        John Forester

"Same Roads Same Rules Same Rights"
        SDCBC

"Roads are for people, not just for people in cars."
        Jim Baross 



From serge at issakov.org  Mon Feb 12 11:27:19 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:27:19 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
References: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/12/07, JonIsaacs at aol.com <JonIsaacs at aol.com> wrote:

As it is,  I think most motorists, me included, have no expectations of
> reasonable behavior from someone on a bicycle and so treat cyclists as
> "loose cannons" that just might do anything.
>

Exactly.  And because of this, motorists get frustrated with bicyclists,
especially when they can't figure out what they're doing.

I've found the best antidote to this is to be aware of motorists and their
potential bewilderment and frustration, and to communicate my intent
specifically to those who are likely to be wondering what I'm doing and are
often (surprisingly) looking to me for direction on what they should do.
It's very difficult if not impossible to do this effectively if your
underlying belief is that it is a "battle" out there and motorists are the
"enemy".

It's counter-intuitive to be understanding, communicative, cooperative,
helpful with, and seeking cooperation from, someone who feels like the
"enemy" in a "battle".

So I have found that the "battle" paradigm, as exemplified by Michael
Clarke's riding and words in the news piece, and echoed by cyclists
endlessly, is counter-productive when one is cycling in traffic.

Serge
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From switz52 at aol.com  Mon Feb 12 11:44:03 2007
From: switz52 at aol.com (switz52 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:44:03 -0500
Subject: [SDCBC] removal from mailing list
Message-ID: <8C91CDC23909486-1C4-7704@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>

can you remove me from this mailing list?? thanks
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
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From tlettington at san.rr.com  Mon Feb 12 12:14:04 2007
From: tlettington at san.rr.com (Tom Lettington)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:14:04 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] removal from mailing list
In-Reply-To: <8C91CDC23909486-1C4-7704@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C91CDC23909486-1C4-7704@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200702121713.l1CHDgRS028641@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>

Each message you have received from the list server reminds you that 
you do that for yourself:
=================================
To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
=================================

At 08:44 AM 2/12/2007, switz52 at aol.com wrote:
>can you remove me from this mailing list?? thanks
>
>----------
><http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol>Check 
>out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security 
>tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across 
>the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as tlettington at san.rr.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
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From execdir at sdcbc.org  Mon Feb 12 13:59:23 2007
From: execdir at sdcbc.org (Kathy Keehan)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:59:23 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Volunteer night this Wednesday, Feb 14th
Message-ID: <00a901c74ed7$e8b7e710$6401a8c0@KathyDell>

It's a special Volunteer Valentine's Day!
Win the hearts of the Coalition by helping with volunteer night on
Wednesday, Feb 14th. 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. at Standley Recreation Center, 3585
Governor Drive, San Diego.
We'll woo you with candy and flowers, and tales of bicycles built for two.
:-)
Hope to see you there!
Kathy

-----------------------------------
Kathy Keehan
Executive Director
San Diego County Bicycle Coalition
P.O. Box 34544
San Diego, CA 92163
858.487.6063
execdir at sdcbc.org <mailto:execdir at sdcbc.org>


From jhsieh at stickman-computing.org  Mon Feb 12 14:55:13 2007
From: jhsieh at stickman-computing.org (James Hsieh)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:55:13 -0500
Subject: [SDCBC] removal from mailing list
In-Reply-To: <8C91CDC23909486-1C4-7704@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8C91CDC23909486-1C4-7704@FWM-R16.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <46652F46-029D-4867-A6B9-E561F2D359FF@stickman-computing.org>

So I've removed you from the list manually.  You should receive
no more emails from SDCBC.

To everyone else remaining on the list, as Tom Lettington pointed
out, to unsubscribe, go to the URL at the bottom of every email
and use the web interface to unsubscribe yourself.  Alternately,
you may send email to postmaster at stickman-computing.org (that's
me) and I can remove you manually.  But this will be subject to
human processing delays (I'll try my best, but I'm not online
100% of the time).

If you'd like off the list at this point, please use the URL or
contact me.  Please do not mark the mail as spam or you will
impact those who wish to receive SDCBC mail from receiving it.

Thanks.

--James Hsieh
Postmaster
Stickman Computing

On Feb 12, 2007, at 11:44 AM, switz52 at aol.com wrote:

> can you remove me from this mailing list?? thanks
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and  
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from  
> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
> _______________________________________________
>
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From forester at johnforester.com  Mon Feb 12 19:02:02 2007
From: forester at johnforester.com (John Forester)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:02:02 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
	<69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>

It looks to me as though a lengthy disquisition regarding cycling 
instruction and cycling instruction policy ought to be generated by 
this discussion. Here's my start.

The evidence is clear that cyclists have a far higher traffic error 
rate than do motorists. The evidence is clear that a very large 
proportion of car-bike collisions are caused by these errors. 
Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that more is likely to be 
accomplished through training of cyclists than through education of 
motorists. Some cyclists keep arguing that many motorists fail to 
acknowledge cyclists' rights; that may be so. However, I have not 
seen evidence that any considerable proportion of car-bike collisions 
have been caused by a defective belief, on the part of the motorist, 
concerning the rights of cyclists under traffic law.

Hence, much of the discussion has concerned how to train cyclists to 
operate in accordance with traffic law. There seem to be two 
different views about the desired scope. One view recommends training 
cyclists, the other view recommends training all road users. 
Everybody who has participated in this discussion recognizes that 
difficulties exist with either scope. However, nobody has mentioned 
the basic problem that underlies all of this. A very large proportion 
of the adult cyclists that one sees upon the roads have been socially 
acclimated, trained, tested, and experienced in the skill of vehicle 
driving. They know how to do it, yet they refuse to use their skill 
and knowledge when they straddle a bicycle saddle.

This is the result of seventy years of teaching the people, almost 
the entire populace, that cyclists should not ride according to the 
rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and using fear to enforce 
this instruction. Some of you may say that this instruction has 
become less intense in recent decades. I thoroughly disagree. 
Practically the entire governmental program about bicycle 
transportation is devoted to institutionalizing this instruction in 
the form of bikeways and the psychological imperatives to use them 
instead of obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. 
While it would be advantageous, as some recommend, to have a unitary 
program of instruction in vehicle driving that applies to both 
driving of motor vehicles and driving of bicycles, I point out two 
real problems. The first is that this will require at least a 
generation to produce the desired effect after general 
implementation, and, second, you haven't a hope in hell of getting 
society to implement such a system until you have already won the 
battle of convincing society that vehicular cycling should be, and 
is, the proper public policy.

However, we vehicular cycling activists, by very strong efforts over 
the past thirty-five years, have managed to protect cycling and 
cyclists to the extent that we have largely prevented the enactment 
and enforcement of laws that would make vehicular cycling unlawful. 
(That is one of our two great achievements. The other is preventing 
adoption of the most dangerous of the proposed bikeway designs, so 
that it is possible to operate on bikeways, using considerable 
caution and better than normal traffic-cycling skill, in reasonable 
safety.)  This means that we can continue to operate in the lawful 
vehicular manner, we can lawfully attract those who might be 
interested in vehicular cycling, and even improve our position by 
using the advantageous cover of encouraging safe and lawful behavior 
to the public good. That way is open to us, and we have seen several 
examples of such action. I think that this is the only way that will 
be open to us for the foreseeable future.

We have plenty of evidence of both the power of the public emotion 
against vehicular cycling and of the means of overcoming that emotion 
in individuals. The means of overcoming that cyclist inferiority 
phobia are repeated successful exposure to real traffic of gradually 
increasing intensity. A useful first step in such acclimatization is 
the video work of Dan and Brian, which can be viewed in a 
non-threatening environment, but it has to be followed by success in 
cycling in real traffic.




John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St.
Lemon Grove, CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 www.johnforester.com



From serge at issakov.org  Mon Feb 12 19:52:37 2007
From: serge at issakov.org (Serge Issakov)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:52:37 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>
References: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
	<69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>
Message-ID: <69ec985b0702121652r3109f9fch8f464f5bb4e11bd3@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/12/07, John Forester <forester at johnforester.com> wrote:
>
>
> We have plenty of evidence of both the power of the public emotion
> against vehicular cycling and of the means of overcoming that emotion
> in individuals. The means of overcoming that cyclist inferiority
> phobia are repeated successful exposure to real traffic of gradually
> increasing intensity. A useful first step in such acclimatization is
> the video work of Dan and Brian, which can be viewed in a
> non-threatening environment, but it has to be followed by success in
> cycling in real traffic.


There are plenty of cyclists who cycle successfully, relatively speaking,
in real traffic, but still don't seem to be "acclimatized".  As an example,
consider Michael Clarke, the KFI manager recently featured in the NBC
news story,

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68

This guy commutes some 34 miles per day in LA traffic.  By
most any reasonable measure, he is an "experienced" traffic cyclist.
But the clips show him riding far to the right (certainly as compared to the
clips shown by Dan and Brian), we know he has been hit at least once,
and his words reveal a strong sense of inferiority while he is out there.

I don't mean to pick on Mr. Clarke, but I believe he is a fairly typical
example
of a very common type of cyclist: he doesn't make the gross errors of riding
on
the wrong side, riding at night without proper lights and reflectors, riding
on sidewalks,
blowing through red lights, etc., but he still doesn't act like a (slow
moving) vehicle driver
when he is out there, particularly not in terms of negotiating for ROW and
controlling
lanes when they are too narrow to be shared, when approaching intersections,
etc.
In fact, very few cyclists seem to do that.  How do we popularize this more
assertive,
safer and more rewarding form of "integrated cycling", as exemplified by the
work of
Dan and Brian, within the community of "experienced" cyclists?  As far as I
can tell,
for the most part, these are not the folks signing up for LAB courses, and,
much of what
is covered in those classes they already know.  Plus, they think doing
anything much
different from what they already do  is "crazy" and/or "asking for it".
They believe
the problem is the motorists and favor bike lanes as reprieve that gives
them space
that they don't have to fight for.   They believe most if not all of the
problems that they
have, be they close calls or actual hits, are par for the course, something
that is
inevitable.  How to reach them?  How to get through to them?

Serge
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From declan at declan.net  Mon Feb 12 20:15:06 2007
From: declan at declan.net (Declan Fleming)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:15:06 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] Fwd: Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
In-Reply-To: <c587da240702111400o7663f99bu31c907b126db374e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0d7a017bae2e9949d6623bc22903a5b0@san.rr.com>
	<c587da240702111400o7663f99bu31c907b126db374e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31b0064e0702121715o5e5be905k924c674005616298@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for all this info about that area!

It adds a whole new leg of SD to explore when I ride out from home.

D

On 2/11/07, Wade Blomgren <wblomgren at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A small heads up regarding the Artesian/Zumaque connection - we've
> ridden through there a number of times as well with no problems, just
> note that there are some speed bumps (3-4) between the base of the
> Artesian hill and the gate.  Depending on the lighting and which way
> you are riding, they can be very hard to see - there's really nothing
> to distinguish them from the rest of the road surface.  Apparently
> there have been a couple of spectacular yard sale crashes, especially
> in the direction coming down Artesian....be careful.
>
> Wade
>
> On 2/11/07, Dave White <dwhite7 at san.rr.com> wrote:
> > Artesian connects to Zumaque for bikes (cars have to deal with a gate
> > with combination pad entry).  From the guard on Camino del sur/norte,
> > take the other fork until reaching the auto gate at the bottom of
> > Zumaque.  A steep climb takes you up to stud loop in RSF.  The signage
> > seems to apply to the property rather than the road.  We have been
> > through several times in both directions, including with groups, and
> > the residents seem to be bike friendly - at least for now.  Let's try
> > and keep it that way.
> > Dave White
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > > From: Declan Fleming <declan at declan.net>
> > > Date: February 11, 2007 9:07:42 AM PST
> > > To: George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com>
> > > Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> > > Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
> > >
> > > Hi - yep, found that out the hard way one day :)
> > >
> > > The Bing Crosby guard will not let you through. I wish Google Maps
> > > would mark gated communities differently.
> > >
> > > I want to go explore down there again. From Google Satellite maps, it
> > > looks like Artesian should connect to Zumaque:
> > >
> > > http://local.google.com/maps?
> > > f=q&hl=en&q=San+Diego,+CA&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=33.012132,
> > > -117.175675&spn=0.002897,0.007381&t=h&om=1
> > >
> > > through a path in the trees, but I think there was some scary signage
> > > down there that put me off. There are some beautiful homes out there,
> > > WITH space around them! I thought I'd gotten lost and ridden to the
> > > MidWest :)
> > >
> > > D
> > >
> > > On 2/11/07, George Cooke <gcooke at san.rr.com> wrote:Coming from Rancho
> > > Bernardo, as Camino del Norte approaches Camino del Sur, there is a
> > > new road that turns off to the right that goes to Crosby Estates. If
> > > you can pass through Crosby Estates, it comes out on the Del Dios
> > > Highway at the other end, BUT, Crosby Estates is a gated community,
> > > and I don't think you can go through unless you live there.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> George W Cooke
> > >>
> > >> gcooke at san.rr.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org [mailto:
> > >> sdcbc-bounces at bikesandiego.org] On Behalf Of Declan Fleming
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:06 AM
> > >> To: Tom Lettington
> > >> Cc: sdcbc at bikesandiego.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [SDCBC] Camino del Norte @ Camino del Sur barricade
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi - based on some advice from this list a few months ago, I rode up
> > >> and asked the guard about bikes, and he said they are specifically
> > >> allowed.
> > >>
> > >>  He also said I could somehow hook up to Del Dios through there, but
> > >> I think his geography was off... I ended up on a long trek through
> > >> the Lusardi Preserve, fearfully listening for cougars. :)
> > >>
> > >>  D
> > >>
> > >> On 2/10/07, Tom Lettington < tlettington at san.rr.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> The security guard has never stopped me and I've ridden through there
> > >>  many times.I think a group ride could be a different deal, but
> > >>  individuals or "small" groups should not have a problem.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  At 10:07 PM 2/10/2007, Michael Guerrero wrote:
> > >>  >Does anyone know if bicycles are allowed through the barricade?
> > >>  >
> > >>  >thanks
> > >>  >
> > >>  >mike
> > >>  >_______________________________________________
> > >>  >
> > >>  >You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as
> > >> tlettington at san.rr.com
> > >>  >To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> > >>  > http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> > >>  >List privacy information is located at
> > >> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> > >>  >For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> > >>  >e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  _______________________________________________
> > >>
> > >>  You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
> > >>  To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> > >> http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> > >>  List privacy information is located at
> > >> http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> > >>  For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> > >> e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as dwhite7 at san.rr.com
> > > To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
> > > http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
> > > List privacy information is located at
> > > http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
> > > For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send
> > > e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as wblomgren at gmail.com
> > To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to
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> > List privacy information is located at
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> to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
>
> You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as declan at declan.net
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From gcarman at san.rr.com  Mon Feb 12 20:21:18 2007
From: gcarman at san.rr.com (Gene Carman)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:21:18 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>
References: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
	<69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>
Message-ID: <200702130126.l1D1QjPr021105@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>

At 04:02 PM 2/12/2007, John Forester wrote:
>It looks to me as though a lengthy disquisition regarding cycling
>instruction and cycling instruction policy ought to be generated by
>this discussion. Here's my start.
>
>The evidence is clear that cyclists have a far higher traffic error
>rate than do motorists. The evidence is clear that a very large
>proportion of car-bike collisions are caused by these errors.
>Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that more is likely to be
>accomplished through training of cyclists than through education of
>motorists. Some cyclists keep arguing that many motorists fail to
>acknowledge cyclists' rights; that may be so. However, I have not
>seen evidence that any considerable proportion of car-bike collisions
>have been caused by a defective belief, on the part of the motorist,
>concerning the rights of cyclists under traffic law.
>
>Hence, much of the discussion has concerned how to train cyclists to
>operate in accordance with traffic law. There seem to be two
>different views about the desired scope. One view recommends training
>cyclists, the other view recommends training all road users.
>Everybody who has participated in this discussion recognizes that
>difficulties exist with either scope. However, nobody has mentioned
>the basic problem that underlies all of this. A very large proportion
>of the adult cyclists that one sees upon the roads have been socially
>acclimated, trained, tested, and experienced in the skill of vehicle
>driving. They know how to do it, yet they refuse to use their skill
>and knowledge when they straddle a bicycle saddle.


And in their "traffic training" have those very adults you mention, 
been taught that they can and should ride bicycles in the streets in 
a vehicular manner, and that they have rights to ride in the streets, 
and that they should drive their bikes as drivers of vehicles?

Those very adults you mention are generally trained, in their youth, 
by parents to NOT ride in the street.  That knowledge is passed on 
from generation to generation ... thus forming the basis for the 
phobia you mention.

Since our traffic training system barely mentions the rights of those 
trained adults to use bicycles as the driver of a vehicle (if at all) 
in the middle of a six week class they take as teenagers...  there is 
no doubt that the knowledge of vehicular cycling does not sink in.

In the CA driver hand book, that information is only barely touched 
upon in a single page of 80  pages of driving information...  in a 
six week driver's education class I doubt 10 minutes is spent 
discussing handling a bicycle as the driver of a vehicle.

There is no doubt in my mind that the lessons of many years of youth 
are vastly stronger then the scant mention of vehicular cycling later in life.

My whole point is that to offset that earlier "stay out of the 
street" training in youth... a much stronger emphasis must be made 
later in life...  and the most opportune time for that training is 
while general traffic training is being taught.



>This is the result of seventy years of teaching the people, almost
>the entire populace, that cyclists should not ride according to the
>rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and using fear to enforce
>this instruction.

I tend to agree...  and where later in life is this training offset 
by any other strong training to tell adult cyclists otherwise?  If 
they happen to search on the web, and they happen to find the LAB or 
SDCBC or similar organization... then the might take a class.  But 
the odds of that happening are very slim... as most adults generally 
feel they "know" how to ride a bicycle.  After all, they were taught 
in their youth.

>snip


From gcarman at san.rr.com  Mon Feb 12 20:24:22 2007
From: gcarman at san.rr.com (Gene Carman)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:24:22 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC] all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <69ec985b0702121652r3109f9fch8f464f5bb4e11bd3@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <be9.edb727c.3301e529@aol.com>
	<69ec985b0702120827uae6264wc066b1e92ddde2ee@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.2.20070212123743.03828718@johnforester.com>
	<69ec985b0702121652r3109f9fch8f464f5bb4e11bd3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200702130129.l1D1ToJ3023305@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>

The concepts should be introduced at the same time they are learning 
how to drive an auto.  Dan's videos should be presented along with 
all the rest of the material.

This would both show future motorists where bicycles belong on the 
road, and show cyclists where they belong on the road... all together 
as integrated traffic.


At 04:52 PM 2/12/2007, Serge Issakov wrote:

>On 2/12/07, John Forester 
><<mailto:forester at johnforester.com>forester at johnforester.com > wrote:
>
>We have plenty of evidence of both the power of the public emotion
>against vehicular cycling and of the means of overcoming that emotion
>in individuals. The means of overcoming that cyclist inferiority
>phobia are repeated successful exposure to real traffic of gradually
>increasing intensity. A useful first step in such acclimatization is
>the video work of Dan and Brian, which can be viewed in a
>non-threatening environment, but it has to be followed by success in
>cycling in real traffic.
>
>
>There are plenty of cyclists who cycle successfully, relatively speaking,
>in real traffic, but still don't seem to be "acclimatized".  As an example,
>consider Michael Clarke, the KFI manager recently featured in the NBC
>news story,
>
> 
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeDxOHfT68
>
>This guy commutes some 34 miles per day in LA traffic.  By
>most any reasonable measure, he is an "experienced" traffic cyclist.
>But the clips show him riding far to the right (certainly as compared to the
>clips shown by Dan and Brian), we know he has been hit at least once,
>and his words reveal a strong sense of inferiority while he is out there.
>
>I don't mean to pick on Mr. Clarke, but I believe he is a fairly 
>typical example
>of a very common type of cyclist: he doesn't make the gross errors 
>of riding on
>the wrong side, riding at night without proper lights and 
>reflectors, riding on sidewalks,
>blowing through red lights, etc., but he still doesn't act like a 
>(slow moving) vehicle driver
>when he is out there, particularly not in terms of negotiating for 
>ROW and controlling
>lanes when they are too narrow to be shared, when approaching 
>intersections, etc.
>In fact, very few cyclists seem to do that.  How do we popularize 
>this more assertive,
>safer and more rewarding form of "integrated cycling", as 
>exemplified by the work of
>Dan and Brian, within the community of "experienced" cyclists?  As 
>far as I can tell,
>for the most part, these are not the folks signing up for LAB 
>courses, and, much of what
>is covered in those classes they already know.  Plus, they think 
>doing anything much
>different from what they already do  is "crazy" and/or "asking for 
>it".    They believe
>the problem is the motorists and favor bike lanes as reprieve that 
>gives them space
>that they don't have to fight for.   They believe most if not all of 
>the problems that they
>have, be they close calls or actual hits, are par for the course, 
>something that is
>inevitable.  How to reach them?  How to get through to them?
>
>Serge
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>You are subscribed to the SDCBC mailing list as gcarman at san.rr.com
>To unsubscribe or change mailing options, go to 
>http://www.bikesandiego.org/mailman/listinfo/sdcbc
>List privacy information is located at http://www.stickman-computing.org/aup
>For help or to talk with someone other than the mail robot, send 
>e-mail to postmaster at stickman-computing.org
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From j.eldon at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb 12 22:59:17 2007
From: j.eldon at sbcglobal.net (John Eldon)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:59:17 -0800
Subject: [SDCBC]  all road users need education
In-Reply-To: <200702130126.l1D1QjPr021105@ms-smtp-03.socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <HIEGILPMAHCBKKIEJAIFIEIBCJAA.j.eldon@sbcglobal.net>

Evidently I am not the only one who considers distracted, inattentive
motorists to be one of the greatest safety threats ANY road user faces.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070212/news_lz1n12read.html


BARRE, Vt. - Put down the flute and keep your eyes on the road.
And forget about sipping that cup of coffee on the way to work, or smoking a
cigarette on the way home. In some states, it could soon be illegal - if it
isn't already.
Emboldened by the passage of cell phone bans for drivers in some
communities, states are turning their attention to other things that drive
motorists to distraction.
Vermont lawmakers are considering a measure that would ban eating, drinking,
smoking, reading, writing, personal grooming, playing an instrument,
"interacting with pets or cargo," talking on a cell phone or using any other
personal communication device while driving. The punishment: a fine of up to
$600.
Similar bills are under consideration in Maryland and Texas, and Connecticut
has passed one that generically bans any activity that could interfere with
the safe operation of a motor vehicle.
"Cell phones attracted people to this issue," said Matt Sundeen, a
transportation analyst with the National Conference of State Legislatures.
"Now that people are more focused on distracted-driving issues, they're
beginning to talk about the broader range of distractions."
For the sponsor of the Vermont bill, the motivation came from his own
observations.
"What finally pushed me over the edge was when I was at a stop sign and
somebody opposite me was trying to navigate around the corner with a cell
phone to the ear in one hand and a cigarette in the other, and she wasn't
doing very well," said Republican state Rep. Thomas Koch.
He said his wife recently saw a driver playing the flute, which led him to
include the instrument ban in his bill.
"There are a lot of bad habits out on the road. This isn't just for drivers'
own good. This is to protect the other people on the road," he said.
Often, they need protection:
 In Illinois, a bicyclist was killed by a driver who had been downloading
cell phone ring tones while behind the wheel last September.
 In Westminster, Calif., a 7-year-old boy was struck and killed by a sport
utility vehicle whose driver lost control as he was trying to reach a cell
phone and plowed into a family at a bus stop Nov. 29, authorities said.
 In Spokane, Wash., a trucker who was allegedly using a cell phone crossed a
highway median and struck another truck head-on, killing five children, in
2005.
 In Athens, Ala., a woman lost control of her car while reaching for a
ringing cell phone and crashed into a church last month.
Distracted drivers were involved in nearly eight out of 10 collisions or
near-crashes in a study by the Virginia Tech Transportation Institute that
was released last year by the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration.
Young drivers are some of the worst offenders. A study of more than 5,600
students released last month by the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and
State Farm Insurance Co. reported that nearly 90 percent had seen friends
drive while talking on cell phones and that half saw drivers playing
handheld games, using listening devices or sending text messages.





From rob_leone at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 13 00:07:31 2007
From: rob_leone at earthlink.net (Robert Leone)
Date